The Early Verdict (kinda long)

[AllisterH]

I'm especially curious about this since these are both defenders... how did you feel they played differently. I ask because one of the things my players didn't want to do, was play the same role as someone else.

It's the class features.

The fighter plays like quicksand in a way. Once he's in the thick of things, nobody is getting past him. It doesnt matter if the monsters don't want to fight the fighter, once in melee, they HAVE to deal with the fighter.

Whereas the paladin plays more like "Face me or die" style and more of a "Ill lay down my life for you" type experience.

You would think that the roles would play the same but the combination of the class features and powers make it a different experience.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It's the class features.

The fighter plays like quicksand in a way. Once he's in the thick of things, nobody is getting past him. It doesnt matter if the monsters don't want to fight the fighter, once in melee, they HAVE to deal with the fighter.

Whereas the paladin plays more like "Face me or die" style and more of a "Ill lay down my life for you" type experience.

You would think that the roles would play the same but the combination of the class features and powers make it a different experience.

Looking at Warlock and Rogue, it is no surprise that two roles can play very different. One is slinging spells at range, the other is murdering people in melee.

But both the Paladin and Fighter are heavily armored guys engaging in melee combat. It's amazing that these two feel so different.

 

[helium3]

To me it just seemed way more to keep track of than in a low level 3e fight against goblins. Like other posters have said, perhaps it evens out at higher levels...but I' not sure that's the case as I think these goblins were on the lower spectrum in their number of abilities.

It's definitely more to keep track of than in 3E at low levels. However, here's a quick list of the number of powers that the goblins have compared to some other higher level creatures.

Goblin Cutter (Lvl 1 Minion): 2 Powers
Goblin Blackblade (Lvl 1 Lurker): 4 Powers
Goblin Warrior (Lvl 1 Skirmisher): 5 Powers
Goblin Sharpshooter (Lvl 2 Artillery): 5 Powers
Goblin Hexer (Lvl 3 Controller Leader): 7 Powers

Aspect of Orcus (Lvl 33 Solo Brute Leader): 7 Powers
Ancient Red Dragon (Lvl 30 Solo Soldier): 8 Powers
Efreet Pyresinger (Lvl 25 Controller): 4 Powers
Githyanki Gish (Lvl 15 Elite Skirmisher): 5 Powers
Skull Lord (Lvl 10 Artillery Leader): 5 Powers
Troglodyte Mauler (Lvl 6 Soldier): 4 Powers

So, high level creatures are pretty comparable to low level creatures in terms of the number of powers they have. The number of powers a creature has seems to have more to do with its role and whether it's a solo, elite or leader.

 

[The Little Raven]

It's definitely more to keep track of than in 3E at low levels.

Agreed. However, to me, this is a good thing, since it makes low-level monster distinctly different from eachother. Instead of the only difference between low-level humanoids being a few stat adjustments and some roleplaying flavor, they are distinct mechanically and much more memorable during a fight.

 

[helium3]

Agreed. However, to me, this is a good thing, since it makes low-level monster distinctly different from eachother. Instead of the only difference between low-level humanoids being a few stat adjustments and some roleplaying flavor, they are distinct mechanically and much more memorable during a fight.

Absolutely. In our first encounter so far, I threw my party up against an Elven Archer, Two Hafling Thieves and Two Guard Drakes.

They were each scary in their own way, though the party was definitely most afraid of the Thieves. Their move, then move while attacking combo is nasty. Especially when the party's managed to get itself mired in difficult terrain that the thieves are just barely able stay out of but still gank people every round while flanking. Nasty!!

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Agreed. However, to me, this is a good thing, since it makes low-level monster distinctly different from eachother. Instead of the only difference between low-level humanoids being a few stat adjustments and some roleplaying flavor, they are distinct mechanically and much more memorable during a fight.

For once I completely agree with Mourn. I liked this a lot.

I think the funny thing about most of the problems people have with 4E (not all, but most of the ones mentioned in this thread), is that they were created by 3.XE. That game gave us a much broader, vaguely simulationist D&D, and felt like a "progression" of AD&D.

Whereas 4E kind of feels like it comes from an alternate universe where 3E never happened, and maybe AD&D didn't happen either, but instead RC D&D just got revised repeatedly. I like 4E as an evolution of RC D&D, but I think a lot of players had very different expectations from D&D due to 3E continuing the 1E-2E evolution. 4E certainly doesn't seem like an "evolution" from 3E, more like it's brutal, primitive-yet-elegant cousin-species.

Maybe WotC had an "AD&D" version of 4E planned that will bring players like Nemm back into the fold, but somehow I doubt it.

 

[Imaro]

Agreed. However, to me, this is a good thing, since it makes low-level monster distinctly different from eachother. Instead of the only difference between low-level humanoids being a few stat adjustments and some roleplaying flavor, they are distinct mechanically and much more memorable during a fight.

I mean I guess it boils down to... "how memorable do I care a fight is" vs. "the amount of effort it takes to run it". It's going to be different for different people. For me, I don't need every fight to be strain my brain or pencil to keep track of everything memorable. Major fights or significant enemies, sure, but I feel there's a point where minor encounters aren't really worth it to me. Give me, at most, 2 to 3 abilities for each different kind of goblin and I'm cool for minor encounters. but I don't want a simple encounter runing on 4 to 5 powers for 3 different types of goblins, all exception based, because honestly the magnitude of the fight isn't worth it. I'm not sure if I'm stating clearly that I don't think it's bad design...just that 4e can get a little ridiculous for low-level monsters IMHO.

 

[The Little Raven]

Give me, at most, 2 to 3 abilities for each different kind of goblin and I'm cool for minor encounters.

That's what they give you.

but I don't want a simple encounter runing on 4 to 5 powers for 3 different types of goblins, all exception based, because honestly the magnitude of the fight isn't worth it.

A creature with 4-5 abilities is an elite or a solo, and designed to take the place of 2 or more creatures in an encounter. So, instead of 5 monsters with 2-3 abilities, you're talking 3 monsters with 2-3 abilities, and one with 4-5 abilities. And that's on the high end.

 

[Imaro]

That's what they give you.



A creature with 4-5 abilities is an elite or a solo, and designed to take the place of 2 or more creatures in an encounter. So, instead of 5 monsters with 2-3 abilities, you're talking 3 monsters with 2-3 abilities, and one with 4-5 abilities. And that's on the high end.

Goblin Sharpshooter 125 xp lvl2 Artillery has...
Short Sword Attack power
Hand Crossbow Attack power
Sniper power
Combat Advantage power
Goblin Tactics power

that's 5 right there for a low-level creature... the goblin hexer has 7...though I will admit after glancing through the Monster Manual it does seem like a limit of about 8 powers for monsters but I don't see it as dependant on level or role at all.

 

[The Little Raven]

Goblin Sharpshooter 125 xp lvl2 Artillery has...
Short Sword Attack power
Hand Crossbow Attack power
Sniper power
Combat Advantage power
Goblin Tactics power

See, this is dependent on the definition "power." The game seems to define a power as an active-use ability, rather than a passive supplementary trait. According to how the game seems to be define it, there's only three powers in that list, one of which can only be used as a reaction to a trigger.

So, it isn't like combat starts and you say "Which of these five am I using?," since only two of them can be used regularly. You're picking from two attacks which are easy to determine (melee or ranged), and the rest is applied depending on the situation.