The Early Verdict (kinda long)

[Orryn Emrys]

I think the fact that you used almost all minions may have had more to do with the ease of running this encounter than the game as a whole being easy to run encounters for. Even then you admit you didn't keep track of everything and you only had 2 different sets of abilities to keep track of, IMHO this doesn't speak to the ease of running encounters in 4e.

I suppose I could have clarified that it was my second 4E battle ever.

 

[The Little Raven]

I know for a fact there were times I forgot to shift a particular goblin when one of my PC's missed it, also that contrary to what everyone is saying a DM needs to be aware of which of his monsters are marked and what the marks effect is...especially when playing intelligent monsters.

Yeah, but you need to remember that they all exist outside of the normal "space" that a creature's stats occupy. There's the things that every creature has: Defense Scores, Ability Scores, Hit Points, Movement Modes, etc.

Then there's the thing that every creature has, but which differs from monster to monster both in how many of them there are AND what they do. That would be the powers. I suppose by this definition, stuff like resists, save bonuses and regeneration are powers as well.

These sound like "period of adjustment" problems to me. It's the exact same thing everyone went through in the switch to 3rd Edition (you had to remember that monsters had feats and skills in addition to the special abilities they had), as well as what you go through when you start DMing (just dealing with the chaos of running multiple NPCs at the same time adjudicating player actions while trying to keep the story flowing), whatever edition it's in.

I can't count how many times I forgot a creature had Power Attack, or forgot to use Improved Grab, or totally spaced on getting a Rend with two successful attacks, or forgot a spell-like ability on a creature because it had a bagillion of them, or forgot that this guy is immune to being caught flat-footed, or whatever. It's all a part of the learning curve of a new edition.

 

[Scribble]

These sound like "period of adjustment" problems to me. It's the exact same thing everyone went through in the switch to 3rd Edition (you had to remember that monsters had feats and skills in addition to the special abilities they had), as well as what you go through when you start DMing (just dealing with the chaos of running multiple NPCs at the same time adjudicating player actions while trying to keep the story flowing), whatever edition it's in.

I can't count how many times I forgot a creature had Power Attack, or forgot to use Improved Grab, or totally spaced on getting a Rend with two successful attacks, or forgot a spell-like ability on a creature because it had a bagillion of them, or forgot that this guy is immune to being caught flat-footed, or whatever. It's all a part of the learning curve of a new edition.

I think forgetting to do stuff is also more realistic... I can't count the number fo times while playing card games for instance that I forgot to throw a pair when it came up, or when playing tennis, forgetting to play the net or soemthing...

In the heat of battle people forget to do their awesomest at times, in favor of just getting off a good smash, or just getting out of the way.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Personally, I'm far more concerned about the "poor tactics = TPK or 20+ rounds of combat" thing.

Me too. I don't like either of those things occurring simply because the players didn't play the battle in full-on tactical mode.

 

[Baron Opal]

Whereas 4E kind of feels like it comes from an alternate universe where 3E never happened, and maybe AD&D didn't happen either, but instead RC D&D just got revised repeatedly. I like 4E as an evolution of RC D&D, but I think a lot of players had very different expectations from D&D due to 3E continuing the 1E-2E evolution. 4E certainly doesn't seem like an "evolution" from 3E, more like it's brutal, primitive-yet-elegant cousin-species.

WOW. This is it!

I've been reading the 4e rules for a while now, but I haven't gotten a chance to run a game yet. My players are interested in it, and we've been playing Arcana Evolved long enough that the seams are showing. I'm also putting together a kid's game for the Baronet and his friends. I'm using the Holmes blue book as a base and I just got the RC in the mail and have been reading it. The feel from the two books is the same. I hadn't put it in words yet, but I think you are right on the mark here. It does seem that they took 3.x mechanics, streamlined some and applied it to the Rules Cyclopedia. Not directly, of course, but the power progressions, the themes of the different stages and levels of power - all there.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

WOW. This is it!

Heh, I'm glad someone feels that way. It was pretty much my immediate reaction on actually reading through the 4E books, and playing it really seemed to confirm it to me. I really can't think of anything that's just outgrowth of something in 3E, where a lot of things in 3E were outgrowths or revisions of AD&D. It does make me perversely hope for the "True successor of AD&D" to come along. It ain't Paizo's game, which is a cool game, but is basically the 3.75E some people were muttering about when 4E was first announced.

 

[The Little Raven]

Heh, I'm glad someone feels that way.

We need to stop agreeing. It's getting eerie... like Twilight Zone eerie.

I've been saying for a while that 4e makes me think that BECMI and 3rd Edition had a love child.

 

[Scribble]

Heh, I'm glad someone feels that way. It was pretty much my immediate reaction on actually reading through the 4E books, and playing it really seemed to confirm it to me. I really can't think of anything that's just outgrowth of something in 3E, where a lot of things in 3E were outgrowths or revisions of AD&D. It does make me perversely hope for the "True successor of AD&D" to come along. It ain't Paizo's game, which is a cool game, but is basically the 3.75E some people were muttering about when 4E was first announced.

Powers seem like an outgrowth of feats to me.

Some feats gave additional abilities, some gave modifications to your character. Make powers the things that give additional abilities, and save feats for modifying characters.

Skills, and how they work. Keep the idea of skills, but streamline how you get the DC, and how you get your level in the skill. Plus skill challenges... A new look at how to use a skills to overcome a problem.

The idea of how attack bonuses are dealt with, and what level bonuses mean.

There are some other things too, those are the ones off the top of my head.

 

[Scribble]

We need to stop agreeing. It's getting eerie... like Twilight Zone eerie.

I've been saying for a while that 4e makes me think that BECMI and 3rd Edition had a love child.

I can see a lot of BD&D in there too though. Like the weapons and their type playing an important role for fighters... Especially if you were into the weapon mastery rules in BD&D.

 

[Wolfwood2]

Me too. I don't like either of those things occurring simply because the players didn't play the battle in full-on tactical mode.

On the other hand, it's a game. Player skill needs to be rewarded somewhere or where's the satisfaction in rolling out the battle?