The Early Verdict (kinda long)

[Imaro]

See, this is dependent on the definition "power." The game seems to define a power as an active-use ability, rather than a passive supplementary trait. According to how the game seems to be define it, there's only three powers in that list, one of which can only be used as a reaction to a trigger.

So, it isn't like combat starts and you say "Which of these five am I using?," since only two of them can be used regularly. You're picking from two attacks which are easy to determine (melee or ranged), and the rest is applied depending on the situation.

Okay, maybe I'm not using the exact definition (though I could swear PC's have "reactive" powers), but my point was how many things that a DM has to keep track of in an encounter and each of these is an individual rule exception which must be kept in mind during an encounter...for a low-level grunt.

 

[The Little Raven]

Okay, maybe I'm not using the exact definition (though I could swear PC's have "reactive" powers), but my point was how many things that a DM has to keep track of in an encounter and each of these is an individual rule exception which must be kept in mind during an encounter...for a low-level grunt.

One question before this discussion continues... have you actually run any 4e encounters, yet? Because while it may seem like it's too much when you read it, in play, it comes out a lot easier than you'd think.

 

[Imaro]

One question before this discussion continues... have you actually run any 4e encounters, yet? Because while it may seem like it's too much when you read it, in play, it comes out a lot easier than you'd think.

Yes. I've run 2 one-off combat encounters and am into the second game of a mini-campaign I am running to determine whether I want to stick with 4e or not. In an earlier post I described the encounter with the goblins I ran. I know for a fact there were times I forgot to shift a particular goblin when one of my PC's missed it, also that contrary to what everyone is saying a DM needs to be aware of which of his monsters are marked and what the marks effect is...especially when playing intelligent monsters.

 

[helium3]

So, it isn't like combat starts and you say "Which of these five am I using?," since only two of them can be used regularly. You're picking from two attacks which are easy to determine (melee or ranged), and the rest is applied depending on the situation.

Yeah, but you need to remember that they all exist outside of the normal "space" that a creature's stats occupy. There's the things that every creature has: Defense Scores, Ability Scores, Hit Points, Movement Modes, etc.

Then there's the thing that every creature has, but which differs from monster to monster both in how many of them there are AND what they do. That would be the powers. I suppose by this definition, stuff like resists, save bonuses and regeneration are powers as well.

The DMG specifically warns you not to construct encounters with creatures that fill every roll. The reason given is that it becomes too difficult to remember what all the different creatures can do.

The first two 4E sessions I ran had a DL 9 and two DL 11 combat encoutners. There was also a DL 10 non-combat encounter in the middle. That first encounter was quite a shock, but I figured out pretty quickly that there's a general "routine" that every creature follows that helps you to remember to use its powers.

The 3rd session was the first game of our 4E campaign proper and in the only encounter they fought, the creatures were pretty straightforward. None of them had powers that could mark, interrupt or impose conditions. Nor did they have any resists, vulnerabilities or regeneration. It was a cake-walk by comparison, which is partly why I wiped the floor with the party. I didn't have to focus on remembering to do things so I had time to think about my tactics.

 

[Tian Zi]

I'm on around page 6-8 of this thread...

If you want to make a skill monkey, non combat tweaked character, pick some feats that represent that!

The system has the tools. Negativity may blind people to them, but they are there.

Back to page 6-8...

 

[Orryn Emrys]

Because while it may seem like it's too much when you read it, in play, it comes out a lot easier than you'd think.

I did notice this in last night's session. I was running the biggest 4E battle I've run so far, with one soldier and a half-dozen minions... the minions just had a basic attack and a conditional bonus to AC, but the soldier had, I think, three different powers and a couple of other spiffy features. I didn't keep track of everything with complete accuracy, but it was easier to manage than I'd expected (particularly after years of allowing DM Genie to do most of that kind of work). I was a bit nervous going into it, however.

 

[Imaro]

I did notice this in last night's session. I was running the biggest 4E battle I've run so far, with one soldier and a half-dozen minions... the minions just had a basic attack and a conditional bonus to AC, but the soldier had, I think, three different powers and a couple of other spiffy features. I didn't keep track of everything with complete accuracy, but it was easier to manage than I'd expected (particularly after years of allowing DM Genie to do most of that kind of work). I was a bit nervous going into it, however.

I think the fact that you used almost all minions may have had more to do with the ease of running this encounter than the game as a whole being easy to run encounters for. Even then you admit you didn't keep track of everything and you only had 2 different sets of abilities to keep track of, IMHO this doesn't speak to the ease of running encounters in 4e.

 

[helium3]

I'm on around page 6-8 of this thread...

If you want to make a skill monkey, non combat tweaked character, pick some feats that represent that!

The system has the tools. Negativity may blind people to them, but they are there.

Back to page 6-8...

Keep at it!! You'll NEVER guess what the twist ending is!

 

[Scribble]

I think the fact that you used almost all minions may have had more to do with the ease of running this encounter than the game as a whole being easy to run encounters for. Even then you admit you didn't keep track of everything and you only had 2 different sets of abilities to keep track of, IMHO this doesn't speak to the ease of running encounters in 4e.

Depends on what you mean by easy... (defenition of "is" huh? )

They made the decision many years ago that characters and monsters should be able to do more then just roll damage.

Easy is kind of relative though. After they made the choice to say monsters should have more then one schtick, they then spent time streamlinign things to make sure those options are almost always somewhat useful, and almost always in a spot the DM would naturaly look for the info.

They didn't get it perfect in my opinion, but it's a definite improvement.

But all fo the hinges on accepting and agreeing with the idea that monsters should have these abilities. If you don't agree/accept then the combat won't be easy.

 

[helium3]

Even then you admit you didn't keep track of everything and you only had 2 different sets of abilities to keep track of, IMHO this doesn't speak to the ease of running encounters in 4e.

You can make the encounters as difficult to run as you want. To make them more difficult, add more roles. Better yet, add two different creatures with the same kind of role in.

The 2nd paragraph in the right hand column of pg. 57 of the DMG talks briefly about the pitfalls of building an overly complex encounter.

Personally, I'm far more concerned about the "poor tactics = TPK or 20+ rounds of combat" thing.