The economics of Continual flame

[Oofta]

Mending isn't just about clothes, something I already had to point to you. It's not just "superglue" which you have also called it.

It fixes *any* break or tear in *any* object that is under a foot.

Clothes? Sure.
Sword broken? Mended.
Armor got holes in it? Mended.
Arrows broken? Mended.

So when we discuss extending the lifetime of useable objects, what we are really discussing is that objects that would have to be discarded because they are broken, wouldn't have to be. Or objects that would have to be broken down to component parts and re-used.

And think of the difference in time. Again, if you bothered looking at the amount of time pre-industrial societies, especially the domestics (women, daughters, domestics help) in those societies had to spend on repair, you wouldn't think this was a small thing. But not just them, because it's not just clothes. As I already wrote, but you have continually ignored, this would apply to itinerant tinkerers, or smithies, or a lot of other areas as well. And that's just one cantrip.

Finally, I don't assume anything, other than assuming I am playing a game. I do find your "logical conclusions" about aTTRPG to be ahistorical.

Of course my conclusions are a-historical. We aren't talking about the historical world, we're talking about one where magic exists.

As far as the rest, it's a matter of scale. I've repaired clothes many times. Sewing a tear that mending could fix only takes a few minutes. What gets time consuming is washing clothes by hand, hauling water, tending the fire, making soap, weeding the garden, weaving a new piece of cloth because that shirt is wearing so thin you can see through it.

It would also save time repairing that one broken link of a chain, but it doesn't save any time at all when creating a new set of chain armor and you have to weld (or braze or link) hundreds of links.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but basically what you are pushing is that magic should never affect society at large.

That makes no sense to me. Magic is part of the fabric of the world in most fantasy campaigns. Ignoring it's impact is like ignoring the impact of glass in the real world because it's not convenient to think about.

There can be a world influenced by magic without that world going to the extreme of the magic steam-punk world of Ebberon.

To each his own, but I'm done with this conversation if all you're going to do is tell me that "I haven't thought about it" because I come to a different conclusion.

 

[SkidAce]

Tinkle Tinkle the shop bell goes.
Mage Ancalagon, " How may I help you kind sir?"
SkidAce, " I am the union boss of Lighters of Waterdeep. I just here to give you the low down. It appears you are trying to put my boys out of work. How low of you. Nice shop. It would be a pity if something happen to laid you low and sick. You know the type of sickness that makes it hard to speak, and causes broken fingers?"

Yassssssss....

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Hello

So I'm prepping this adventure in a castle where the servants have been prevented by mayhem (why the PCs are called in) to light or replace candles, torches etc, so I was thinking it would be dark. Then I realized - silly me, this castle is owned by a powerful wizard, there should be continual flame spells everywhere.

But then I started thinking about it... Continual flame spells are expensive... or *are they*?

Let us consider not a mage or a rich noble, but a modest artisan. He's doing ok for himself, living a lifestyle of 1.5 gp a day (halfway between modest and comfortable). He needs light every evening in a single room, for 3 hours on average. Nothing extravagant. This, however, has a cost. If he uses a lantern or lamp, this is about 5 cp/night. Candles would cost him 3 sp/night (and shed less light). Torches are as cheap and shed more light, but the smoke... so let's stick with an oil lamp - he's has a little bit of money, after all.

at 5 cp a night, this adds up to about 18.25 gp a year. So in other words, a continual flame spell would pay for itself in less than 3 years! People in the middle ages were capable of long term planning - they did long term projects for great gains - building a fence, planting an orchard, or building a cathedral. Our artisan could, for example, limit himself to candles and in less than a decade, take the spare 2cp/night to buy the continual light, and save that 5 cp a night for other things.

Given that continual light spells can be cast by low-level casters, I can see this as a common, harmless way to raise funds. Temples could sell them too to the faithful - they might be hesitant to give magic to the masses, but same as a potion of healing, what harm could *light* do? Even very humble peasants may have one - the "family continual flame", passed down from generation to generation - it was given as a reward to great grandfather Jeb by the bishop as a reward for his help in fighting off the goblins - or some other colorful story.

Having continual flames everywhere may be too "magical" for the setting you want to create. But the economics tell us that they should be all over the place.

So one thing missing in this discussion is that for the most part, people tended to go to bed when it got dark, rather than stay up. In addition, the light of a fire would be sufficient and already present during the seasons or places where the night is longer because it’s also colder.

If other light was needed, homemade candles were essentially free. You’re really changing a social matter rather than an economic one.

Your friendly wizard comes by trying to sell a continual flame stick? Why would I need that? What would I do?

Once you do get to the economic side of things, the real question will be cash flow, not long term economics. Not to mention that a fair amount of trade would be barter, not coins. Having that amount of free coins isn’t likely for most.

Pseudo-medieval life is much simpler than our lives. Since most economies are agriculturally-based, survival is tenuous from year to year, and steady income as such doesn’t really exist for most. Nobody would be guaranteed to have that steady income for that long.

Watch Little House on the Prairie, it wasn’t all that different in the 1800s. Only a couple of families have anything that would be considered any amount of wealth. Dr. Baker and The Olesen’s would probably be able to afford them, and he would have a use for it, while Mrs. Olesen would just want it for status. Dr. Baker is often paid in chickens and pies.

Same thing with the Amish in the movie Witness.

Farmers would welcome them in the morning when they get up to tend to animals. But homemade candles or a lantern is sufficient until dawn breaks.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

I had a wizard in a 3E game that was able to purchase one of the dull grey "burned out" ioun stones for cheap money after it had absorbed its last spell. The ioun stone itself no longer had any magical abilities, but we said it still would circle around your head when placed there. I then cast Continual Flame on the stone, so that I had what basically amounted to a "light halo" over my PC that produced light and that I didn't have to carry. And if we needed it dark or I went outside, I could just grab and stow the stone for later. It was basically a 3E predecessor to the Driftglobe.

Driftglobes go back at least to 2e.

 

[5ekyu]

Interesting!

So your contention is:

a. There is no "set amount" of ruby dust (in terms of, say, weight).
b. Instead, there is a fluctuating amount of ruby dust that is always equal to 50gp.

I mean, sure, I guess. It really raises a lot more questions about the nature of magic* than it seems to answer, but okay.


*Is magic intelligent? Does magic know about exchange rates and inflation? Can you trick magic? Are there arbitrage opportunities ... if I buy rubies near a ruby mine, and grind them up, can I then travel to a place where there are few or no rubies to take advantage of this?

My contention is the material components defined for the spell expresses a GP amount of ruby dust.

The rest is just what you make of that.

If you run it differently in your games that's just fine.

 

[5ekyu]

Is this meant as a joke? I can't tell. Poe's Law and all that.

Does your PHB list a weight or volume of dust required?
Or does it list a GP amount?

 

[5ekyu]

I think we are basically in agreement; to me, asking about the "economics" of continual flame is pointless. It is what it is because the book says that is what it is. It makes sense for the game, even if it doesn't make sense for a "world," because it is easy for the DM.

I don't think it makes too much sense to peer behind the curtain when it comes to economics and worldbuilding for a TTRPG. It's the type of thing that is difficult enough for computers to simulate; I wouldn't try it with pen and paper.

TLDR; it's an agreed fiction. When will the police show up to the gunshots? When the narrative demands that they do.

Yes, agree. I doubt there has ever been a DnD game with rock solid economics provided, attempted or even sought by many.

Heck, far as I can tell by watch our professionals, not so much one irl either.

 

[abirdcall]

Same thing with the Amish in the movie Witness.

Witness is very good. One of my favourites.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

1000gp seem really too much.

In 3rd edition cost of 2nd level spell to be casted was 60gp, plus any costly material components. I don't see why it would be much different in 5th edition. Unless you are going for low-magic setting.

That is of the shelf price. No bargaining, no contract.

3rd level wizard can cast 3 2nd level spells per day(with arcane recovery). If a town or a city takes wizard under contract for mass casting(i.e. 100 light posts), I'm sure that then price will be in the 10-20gp range, not 60gp.

for a months work(and by work, I mean few minutes per day), 3rd level wizard is up for 1000gp without any risk. One month of easy work gives you 8 months of wealthy living.

Because there is no such thing as an off-the-shelf price in a pseudo-medieval economy. Even our modern economy isn’t as predictable as following the D&D rules for income and economics.

I find this sort of topic quite interesting because it gives me the opportunity to learn something.

So here’s some research on actual medieval prices for real, mundane things:

https://www.economics.utoronto.ca/munro5/SPICES1.htm

http://faculty.goucher.edu/eng240/medieval_prices.html

Check out the fluctuation in wheat prices:
http://www.medievalcoinage.com/prices/medievalprices.htm

Of course, the records are extremely sparse. But imagine what magic would cost, and how much it would fluctuate in such a world.

 

[Dausuul]

Does your PHB list a weight or volume of dust required?
Or does it list a GP amount?

Uh-huh. This goes in the same bucket as the coffeelock, a build based on the idea that PCs can go without sleep forever because the book lists no rules penalty for doing so.

Sometime I'd be interested to play in Rules Lawyer Land. I'd send the fighter to buy one copper piece worth of ruby dust. Then I'd buy one single grain from the fighter for 50 gp, and cast continual flame with it. Then I'd sell the resulting magic torch to the fighter for 50 gp (hey, it's fair market value!) and repeat. Of course, that's just a warm-up act. The main event is when the cleric learns resurrection.