The ELH is a great book (if you know how to use it)!

[Turanil]

However, to use the ELH effectively you have to be willing to throw away some of the assumptions in the DMG. For example, the notion that most NPCs are level 1 is a silly assumption that only works in a campaign setting where level 20 is the pinnacle of human achievement.

I disagree.

1) Basic NPCs in my campaign world are generally 3rd level. 1st level for young adult around 16-20; and 4th - 5th level for experienced individuals.

2) Epic levels NPCs in my campaign are but a handful. To make a parallel with tolkien, only a couple of characters of Galadriel stature who have lived well over a thousands of years go beyond the 20th or 30th level. Absolutely nobody under 100 years (whatever the race) get past 20th level. Epic levels are there to say "legendary people", and only three, maybe four or five, legendary people live in the campaign world. Also, they are not random encounter, but character well known (if only through rumors) in the campaign setting.

Of course, it means that if players ever come past 20th, their enemies won't be a score of other epic level villains.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I use the Epic Level Handbook, but I don't make the changes to my demographics you suggest. The typical (not average) NPC in my world is level 1 or 2, and decidedly less powerful than a 1st-level PC. Leaders of nations are often 5th to 10th level (and most of those are aristocrat levels), though conquering overlords may have epic levels (Ftr26).

There are several epic characters per nation. Epic NPCs I've detailed to the players include Vorgixat (dragon ruling over a human kingdom), Angimon (high priest of a major religion), and the Eldest (overlord of a southern country, one of the original proto-elves).

Making the characters grow in power relative to the rest of the world as they level is important to me. Eventually they'll realize that they can stay where they are, working exclusively on the national scale -- maybe even taking over nations -- or they can venture onto the planes, where there's more to do at their level.

 

[diaglo]

i use the ELH as a space holder on my shelf. so in a way it is useful.

but then again all of my 2000ed and 3.11ed for workgroups are space holders.

 

[Aaron2]

The problem is further compounded by most game designers perpetuating the silly notion that the average NPC should be level 1.

I don't get it. What difference does it make to a 30th level character whether Joe Farmer is 1rst or 10th level?


Aaron

 

[Numion]

2000ed and 3.11ed for workgroups

Thats funny!!!!!!!!!!11! LOL LOL LOL!!

 

[Mystery Man]

I don't get it. What difference does it make to a 30th level character whether Joe Farmer is 1rst or 10th level?

Aaron

Or for that matter, how many farmers are named Joe.

I think the problem with NPC's is a big one. The dichotomy here is that the PC's are the heroes of the world, and this means then that they must be at the top of the scale in terms of how powerful mortals can be. After all, if they're there as 10th level characters fighting to stop their world from sliding into the Abyss, why isn't the cabal of 30th level mages doing something about it?

The problem is that then this turns around and zonks the DM at epic levels, as the disparity between the PCs and NPC's becomes wider and wider to the point of being ludicrous.

Metaplotting players and DM's would have a hard time yes.

Personally I can't wait to run into this demographics problem myself. I think I'll just keep a 2x4 handy to hit my players over the head if they ask.

 

[Desdichado]

If the town lord was only level 10 when the PC's were level 1, its not very believeable that he is now level 30 when the PCs are level 20.

I fail to see how that makes any difference whatsoever unless the PCs are trying to fight the town lord at 1st level and then again at 20th level. Your claim that the assumptions that most folk are low level as being "silly" is singularly absurd; it's only silly if you are rushing the PCs up to epic levels as fast as you can. In fact, the very presence of epic levels, or even high levels in general, makes the world operate in a silly fashion, because naturally any good GM is going to be scaling challenges for his PCs. The question becomes, why in the world do challenges even exist that are appropriate for low level characters in the first place? Anyone who's even halfway competent has to figure that he's out to stop 8th to 10th level characters at a bare minimum.

Of course, it could be said that the concept of leveling is silly in and of itself, but hey, we like d20 over here at ENWorld, right?

And I fundamentally disagree that the rules work fine as is with the exception of the spells. The feats are wildly unbalanced; it's telling that some of the "epic" feats are now regular feats (Manyshot, for example) while others are almost more appropriate as Salient Divine Abilities. The magic weapons section was pathetic, with the claim that, hey, now artifact level magic items are at best halfway stations to truly epic artifacts. The class progressions make no sense, the "epic" prestige classes is a fundamentally flawed concept anyway, IMO, the Union section was worse than useless (beat cops at 25th level? Gimme a freakin break!).

And the concept is flawed to begin with, IMO. Anytime the modifier becomes larger than the range of the die roll, the game has issues with nonsensical probabilities. When they become, as in the ELH, two or three times the range of the die roll, the game flat out becomes absurd. In fact, I find it ridiculous that you would argue that the DMG assumptions are "silly" because the world doesn't make sense that way, and yet you blithely ignore the absurdity of a lock that has a pick DC of 70. Or heck, even 50. Although, hey, the guy who can pick the DC 70 lock literally cannot fail to pick the DC 50 lock, because he has more skill points in Pick Lock than the DC!

To be fair, that problem already exists somewhat at higher "standard" levels. IMO, that's the biggest failing of d20; the levels really only work well over a somewhat narrow range, and then they start to strain the system in weird ways. The fact that the ELH was written without regard to this problem makes it an extremely poorly designed supplement, IMO.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

What is the 'fundamental flaw' in the concept of Epic Prestige Classes?

Some of the individual classes in the ELH seem somewhat less than breaktaking in their prowess (I have a tenth the abilities of a 10th-level sorcerer and use them 1/day... but as spell-like abilities! I must be Epic... or a CR 4 monster...), but what's wrong with the concept?

Personally, considering the lack of class features for levels 21-40 (the main range the ELH covers well), I would've rather seen the PrC mechanic used exclusively for those levels, something like the promotions in the Shining Force series (which, in point of fact, became available at 20th level and progressed to around 40th... )

As for the city of Union and its much-maligned Sentinels... 25th-level beat cops are only absurd if you assume that the average NPC is 1st through 5th level.

 

[Katerek]

The Epic Level Handbook fo rme was alrgely hit or miss.

The Epic Level Spells are poorly done but my group and I have come up with a work around for our campaign.

As for Union, I wish they had made that a separate product. That chapter was alrgely a waste of space for me.

The feats are great, and probably the most often used portion of the book.

The magic items were largely ho-hum. I wish that they had spent more time coming up with some truly Epic Items rather than just boosting already existing items along intuitive lines.

The monsters are good, and I am glad to see the Demi Lich in there. I wish that Deities and Demigods had been written to incorporate the Epic Book and that they had saved the Tarrasque for the ELH as well.

Was it worth the money to me? Sure, but I am a bit of a sellout and buy pretty much everything WoTC puts out. So take that for what it is worth.

 

[mmadsen]

Anytime the modifier becomes larger than the range of the die roll, the game has issues with nonsensical probabilities. When they become, as in the ELH, two or three times the range of the die roll, the game flat out becomes absurd.

The diceless Amber roleplaying game, based on Zelazny's "epic" series, actually takes this a step further -- the character with the higher score simply wins any contest involving that trait. Don't get in a sword fight with the best swordfighter in the multiverse; he's immortal, and he's been training for centuries.