The ethics of ... death

Sure there might be bruises or a "nick or cut" - but those generally aren't going to result in a full injection of poison, which requires the fangs to sink in and remain in for a short while.

Wait, you're comparing a full on blow from a giant's sword... with the physical damage of a snake bite? I'm going to go out on a limb and say the nick from a giant's sword or axe is probably at least equivalent, if not more damaging, than the actual bite (not counting poison) of an average size snake, especially since most people don't die from the actual damage of the bite.... But you keep purposefully twisting the narrative so that it makes the situation inconsistent when it is not...

OK, look - this seems to be turning into you three (again) assuming that there is some sort of attack on 3.x going on, so you have to man the barricades once more. That's not where I started, and I'm not going to continue a protracted back-and-forth while you try to - what? Get me to break down and admit that 3.x was the uber-edition that perfectly simulates the ultimate fantasy reality or something? It's not going to happen.

Ascribe motivations much, we're discussing SoD, you made a claim that it is inconsistent with hit points... that is what I (I don't know about the other two posters you are referring to since unlike you I am not a mind reader) am speaking to. Please don't tell me why I am doing something or what I am thinking thank you very much.

You like 3.x D&D - I get that. You like mixing up hit points and SoD in the same game - great. Good for you. I don't, and I find it an inconsistent milieu when it happens, but I'm not going to waste more time here defending my views from people who seem to need to prove some particular scheme "right". There is no "right", here - get over it.

This isn't about 3.x or my liking it. It's about you making a general claim concerning inconsistency between hit points and SoD on a public message board for discussion and then seeming to get mad and attacking the posters as opposed to the arguments when it appears not everyone agrees with you. We are all expressing our opinions, it just seems that you feel yours should be heard but ours shouldn't... go figure.
 

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I wouldn't call falling off 100 foot cliffs and walking away genre consistency. How many times does it happen to Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Shadowspawn, or Cudgel?

And how many times do any of those characters die from a snakebite? Or, in fact, die at all? Folks were arguing that the rules are not supposed to make adventuring seem a reasonable career choice, when all those characters make it seem quite tenable. By those examples, adventurers seem to have a risk of death, but that risk remains unrealized. Is the book interesting and exciting, even though we *know* that Conan's not going to die, because we know he's in the sequel?

Well, so much for us needing the threat of death to be thrilling! If you're holding up those as the examples D&D has to match, PC death doesn't need to happen much, if at all! Thank you for handing me my point!

(But really, I was thinking more about the game's *internal* genre consistency, rather than how it may or may not match a specific external genre definition.)

But who said it has to be run of the mill rattlesnakes?

That's like asking why it has to be a run-of-the-mill cat that kills the commoner in 3e. The way the rules are written, a basic rattlesnake can have this effect.
 

And how many times do any of those characters die from a snakebite? Or, in fact, die at all? Folks were arguing that the rules are not supposed to make adventuring seem a reasonable career choice, when all those characters make it seem quite tenable. By those examples, adventurers seem to have a risk of death, but that risk remains unrealized. Is the book interesting and exciting, even though we *know* that Conan's not going to die, because we know he's in the sequel?

Well the thing is... this view only holds up when you look at the characters of (as opposed to the stories of) Conan or Fafhrd and Gray Mouser, or Elric without context, and ignore those around them who are also adventuring. Many of their companions and other adventurers die in mundane or horrible and/or gruesome ways. the problem is in assuming your character is predestined to be like Conan, Fafhrd, Gray Mouser and Elric instead of the numerous other characters in the stories. I think in D&D or most role playing games where death of a character is a possibility this isn't a good assumption to start out with... you just might be Count Smiorgan Baldhead instead of Elric.
 

Well the thing is... this view only holds up when you look at the characters of (as opposed to the stories of) Conan or Fafhrd and Gray Mouser, or Elric without context, and ignore those around them who are also adventuring.

But, doesn't that then also apply to your original point? You don't get to cherry-pick for the characters that support you at a given moment, but then shove them aside when they're inconvenient for your point.

The real issue you're missing is that in fiction, there are main characters and secondary characters, and they follow notably different tropes. The game most certainly does not support a differentiation between "main" PCs and "secondary" PCs. But, I don't see you griping about that.

My original point was about genre consistency - I meant it differently than you took it, but that's okay. At this point, you are doing an excellent job of pointing out in how many ways the game is *not* consistent with the fictional genres that were inspirations, and that "but that doesn't happen to Conan!" is a pretty weak argument. Do you want to continue proving that for me?
 

But, doesn't that then also apply to your original point? You don't get to cherry-pick for the characters that support you at a given moment, but then shove them aside when they're inconvenient for your point.

What original point, because I wasn't the original OP you responded to, and I just want to be clear and make sure we are on the same page here.

Now that said, I feel like you're the one cherry picking, we are speaking to genre consistency not consistency with one particular character in said genre... in other words we're asking are the things that happen in-game consistent with the appendix N stories that inspired it...I would say for the most part yes. What we aren't asking is are the characters in the game replicas of Conan or Gray Mouser...

The real issue you're missing is that in fiction, there are main characters and secondary characters, and they follow notably different tropes. The game most certainly does not support a differentiation between "main" PCs and "secondary" PCs. But, I don't see you griping about that.

Well there are PC's and they become "main" PC's or "secondary" PC's through the fiction we create while playing the game. The main difference is a single person decides in a story while many more factors decide it in a game of D&D... I'm not sure why I would "gripe" about this though, could you please expound on what you mean?

As to the different tropes that main characters and secondary characters follow, please expound on those because Smiorgan Baldhead comes off as a main character (and quite likable) all the way up to the point where he is burned to death by Melnibonean dragons.

My original point was about genre consistency - I meant it differently than you took it, but that's okay. At this point, you are doing an excellent job of pointing out in how many ways the game is *not* consistent with the fictional genres that were inspirations, and that "but that doesn't happen to Conan!" is a pretty weak argument. Do you want to continue proving that for me?

Please explain to me what you meant by genre consistency, because in my mind D&D is pretty genre consistent (as opposed to being consistent with a single character from the genre which seems to be where your argument is going) with the fiction that inspired it. I also agree with the fact that "but that doesn't happen to Conan!" is more than a pretty weak argument (especially since it's an argument against SoD) since, Conan the character is not a genre and you've made no agreement to play the protagonist in a game of D&D... only a character.

On a side note... what is your point because your argument seems incoherent. Maybe it's the medium (an internet forum) but I am having a seriously hard time (especially after this last post) figuring out what exactly I am "proving" for you? So please enlighten me.
 

That's like asking why it has to be a run-of-the-mill cat that kills the commoner in 3e. The way the rules are written, a basic rattlesnake can have this effect.

I don't recall how 3E handles it, but in 2E, a basic rattlesnake isn't explicitly statted. They give several types of snake poison, that cover a range of results on a failed save (everything from no damage, to a little damage, to a lot of damage to instant death, to death in a bit of time). I suspect the more deadly venoms were assumed to belong to things like cobras. A rattlesnake may belong to the death in a bit of time grouping. But we should remember before we paint the game with too big a brush, even in older editions, save or die was not always the case with poison. If you run snakes as written, there is a very small chance the snake you encounter even has venom that is SoD.

I think you raise a good point here. The question is whether someone feels a run of the mill the rattlesnake should be able to kill a heroic character. Everyone will answer that differently. And this also raises the issue of how much plot immunity PCs ought to have (which also varies considerably from group to group). Personally I am fine with a highly poisonous snake killing my high level character on a failed save (I think a run of the mill rattlesnake maybe shouldn't be SoD, just potentially lethal---a cobra I am fine being SoD). I do want the chance of failing the save to go down over time, though. But then, I also really have no problem with my character dying from any number of causes along the way.

One thing I would like to see them address in the rulebook is approaches to character death. Because people do handle this differently and emotions around it can be quite high. That would probably be a bit useful, and I think it is fair for them to include a dial on stuff like saves to either crank up or down the lethality. I see this issue come up again and again on these boards, where its clear folks have very different expectations around how often PCs deaths should occur.
 

plenty of conan stories have him taking heavy blows from foes, and getting up, but clearly show that so much as a nick from a giant snake will kill him (i recall one where the venom dripped on his skin and burned). I do not think conan stories translate very well into hp though, and like I said before, much of this depends on how you view HP (and while you and pemertons HP analysis is entirely valid as an opinion, it is not shared by everyone....i would say most people assume a certain amount of physcial damage from any given succesful attack). These things do break down under scrutiny, but that is the nature of abstractions.

I would classify "the venom dripped on his skin and burned" as a D&D hit with a successful save - he skillfully avoided the main damage, got burned by the venom and used up a bit of that skill/luck of avoiding the snake. Or is it your contention that the PC's only hope of surviving that snake battle, over several rounds of combat, is to always be missed? It seems unlikely for a serious threat of a monster to be that incapable of striking a heavily armored PC, much less a lughty armored (or loincloth clad) barbarian.

They can be, but are not necessarily. If we were talking about an area where a Medusa has never been and where no one has traveled much, and one shows up, the DC to identify it should be pretty high. However, that is not generally going to be the case.

If there is a medusa around the area, how have the people in the area survived this long? They're pretty dangerous to a town full of commoners, I believe.

I do not see anything in the RAW that requires us to treat creatures that are real within the D&D world as being more obscure than their legends are in the real world.

I see the Knowledge Skill rules for creature identification, and the fact that the average peasant is not typically assumed to have 6 - 12 years of education not focused on their role in society.

Ask him what a giraffe is. Does he know that it has a long neck? Does he know that a jellyfish can sting you? Probably yes, even if he lives in the Midwest. People knew these things before the internet. A basilisk is very likely on the same level in a world that has them.

Ask a 17th century American Indian about giraffes and jellyfish. I saw giraffes in the zoo - do you think there are zoos full of medusae and basilisks in the D&D world? Long before the internet, we had public libraries and encyclopediae, which were made possible by the advent of the printing press. I don't envision the typical D&D world being that educated, or that modern. It's easy to forget that literacy could not simply be assumed, even going back a hundred years in North America. It's so beyond us that Barbarians in D&D need to know how to read to satisfy our modern sensibilities.

There is, however, every reason that any D&D character who had ever lived near a or been to volcano or extraplanar portal leading to the inner planes would know what one is. Character knowledge is likely to be greater than player knowledge regarding D&D-isms.

Which leaves the question of how common volcanos and extraplanar portals are. If magmin (and salamanders, fire elementals, etc.) are just wandering around, I speculate any human(oid) settlement would be long since wiped out.

Quite a conceit!

Indeed. Perhaps the better answer would have been a general guideline on monster rarity, and MM specifics as to the DC to identify a creature, and what facts are gained at each success level. But that's a lot more work, so we take a shorthand assumption. Much like we don't sever luck, skill, that 'sixth sense' and sheer physical toughness, nor do we separate dodging from shields and armor. We make simplifying assumptions.

For example, are we to believe that if an elder red dragon appears in the distance, a bunch of townsfolk will have no idea what it is, let alone that it breathes fire and is evil? That seems unlikely.

This highlights another problem with the Knowledge conceit - if only it were a younger dragon, the DC would be lower and he would be easier to identify! That said, from that distance, they see a large winged shape, and likely cannot differentiate colour. Do they wait to see whether it might be a Gold or Red Dragon? That dragons are color-coded for our convenience is every bit as much a conceit as the Knowledge DC's.

Peasants are generally not the chief disseminators of knowledge. All it takes is one adventurer stopping at the local inn with his stories of monsters far and wide for many of them to become common knowledge.

Well, clearly if some half-drunk vagrant at the inn said it, it MUST be true! :)

And what is your explanation of what happens when a players asks the single question: "What is that thing?". Are we required to ignore the first rule? There is nothing that says that the question cannot relate to monsters or that the second use supersedes the first. I would say this is a simple case of using whichever rules is more favorable or makes more sense.

It is quite similar to that player asking to use his Knowledge: Arcana to determine a potion's effects by taste. Identifying magic items has a specific rule. So does identifying creatures. "What is that thing?" is an attempt to identify a creature, not "a question in your field". If "that thing" is a 6 HD medusa, a roll of 16 is required, which makes the question a bit more than a basic question (of DC 15). The only issue I take with that is that the medusa should not be more difficult to identify solely because it has taken two Fighter levels and gained 2 HD.

The rules don't say that. They say that a DC 10 Knowledge check can be made untrained, and that one can answer a really easy question with such a check, and that trained characters can answer other questions at higher DCs. Depending on context, the existence of a monster living nearby with a powerful ability can easily be a DC 10 Knowledge (Local) or Gather Info check. The existence of a really powerful monster or common race of monsters not nearby could easily fall under another Knowledge, such as Geography or Planes. Legends could fall under History or bardic knowledge. The rules, as written, promise that if you make the DC 10 + CR check you will get identity and useful information, but there is absolutely nothing in the rules that says that a player cannot identify a pertinent threat without using the DC 10 + CR rule.

There is nothing in the rules that says you cannot identify a potion by taste either. However, I believe most of us assume the presence of a rule for identifying a potion should be taken to indicate that this is how identification of potions works in game. Cite a rule that suggests your position is correct and I am happy to look at it. The absence of a rule that says you cannot use a dozen other ways to identify a monster does not indicate that those approaches are part of the rules, rather than your own house rules.

Well, closer observation. If the statues look like they are terrified and running away or fighting, that kind of suggests that, in a world with petrification magic, they were. Again, it's very easy to rationalize this kind of thing as being a DC 10 or 15 untrained Int or Wis check (which, given a four-character party of non-imbeciles, is pretty easy for at least one to make), let alone Knowledge (Arcana).

I think I would deliberately have animated statues carved to look like people terrified and running away or fighting, so they can surprise you from behind while you look for the petrification monster...

The bottom line is that given a rational DM, most PCs will have some idea of what their opponents are and what the capabilities of said opponents are most of the time, because PCs are not stupid. Using a selective and narrow reading of the rules to suggest that DMs can deprive players the use of that knowledge is just spiteful.

This posits a world simply teeming with monsters. How do all those low level commoners survive in such an environment?

Because on one hand, a death spiral in D&D would suck a lot of the fun out of the game and on the other hand, the PC's impaired state is already abstracted into his lower hit points. He's no longer able to dodge forever. If he's down to his last 3 hit points, the venomous creature's bite may actually kill him outright (or put him into unconsciousness territory and dying - which is the same if he doesn't have any buddies to help him out).

But he remains just as likely to save as he was at 100 hp, when clearly any hit was a mere scratch, deftly evaded. While I don't want a death spiral, its desirability, or lack of same, is a matter of preference, and not an objective determination. The likelihood of the physical trauma killing him has changed due to lower hp, but the likelihood of a solid bite injecting a lethal toxin has not changed at all - espite the fact that our Hero is no longer so spry and able to evade those lethal fangs.
 

Well the thing is... this view only holds up when you look at the characters of (as opposed to the stories of) Conan or Fafhrd and Gray Mouser, or Elric without context, and ignore those around them who are also adventuring. Many of their companions and other adventurers die in mundane or horrible and/or gruesome ways. the problem is in assuming your character is predestined to be like Conan, Fafhrd, Gray Mouser and Elric instead of the numerous other characters in the stories. I think in D&D or most role playing games where death of a character is a possibility this isn't a good assumption to start out with... you just might be Count Smiorgan Baldhead instead of Elric.

I think the thing to keep in mind, is D&D is not neccesarily trying to model these stories exactly. It can be done for that purpose. Lots of groups like characters to have the same level of plot immunity as main characters in stories, but other people see character survival as a lot more uncertain (and its uncertainty as an important part of the game). I do not think one approach is better than the other.
 

I would classify "the venom dripped on his skin and burned" as a D&D hit with a successful save - he skillfully avoided the main damage, got burned by the venom and used up a bit of that skill/luck of avoiding the snake. Or is it your contention that the PC's only hope of surviving that snake battle, over several rounds of combat, is to always be missed? It seems unlikely for a serious threat of a monster to be that incapable of striking a heavily armored PC, much less a lughty armored (or loincloth clad) barbarian.
.

This is how I would treat a miss. But like I said, I am not worried about modeling conan stories. This is going to boil down to the character's AC and the to hit or THAC0 of the monster. So yes, for me if you are facing a very venomous snake, I am absolutely fine with your hope of survival hinging on not being struck by it or by making your save. Again, this would only be for truly lethal snake bites. I would not suggest using it for all poisonous snakes (and as I stated in 2E it isn't). Basically in my games, I feel Conan can die and snake bites are entirely appropriate way for him to perish if luck is not on his side. Again though, it is preference. You feel differently and there is nothing wrong with that.
 

I think you raise a good point here. The question is whether someone feels a run of the mill the rattlesnake should be able to kill a heroic character. Everyone will answer that differently. And this also raises the issue of how much plot immunity PCs ought to have (which also varies considerably from group to group). Personally I am fine with a highly poisonous snake killing my high level character on a failed save (I think a run of the mill rattlesnake maybe shouldn't be SoD, just potentially lethal---a cobra I am fine being SoD). I do want the chance of failing the save to go down over time, though. But then, I also really have no problem with my character dying from any number of causes along the way.

Depends on what game we're playing ultimately. If we're playing a western game like Aces and Eights or Boot Hill, I'd be quite disappointed if a rattlesnake bite couldn't kill a PC. Poisonous snakes, particularly rattlers, are threats of the genre. And if we were playing a game based on the Thieves' World anthology, rattlesnakes may make no sense but the venomous pets of the Beysibs should certainly have a deadly bite. And, ultimately, I guess I don't have a problem with PCs dying form snake bites in other systems and genres either. I might look for a less abstract treatment of snake bite than D&D's save or die depending on the game and how important that sort of event was to the game, but I don't have a problem with some threats in the system being highly dangerous.
 

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