The ethics of ... death

N'racc. I was conceding the believability issue largely and offering pemerton some possible subjective reasons why it still appeals to my sense of that. But that said, I do agree poison could be more realistic. It is highly simplified in the same way HP are. And as I told pemerton my main reason for supporting SoD is I find save or die effects exciting. To me they add a lot of fun to the game. I guess around things like certain poisons and magical abilities it feels appropriate to me to add in save or die. But I am not terribly worried about consistency across the system where some other effects that are arguably just as dangerous do not revive the same treatment
I'll just say, here, that I understood your post perfectly, and appreciated it - thank you.

It goes back to what I said, in support of others, to [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] several pages ago: it really does boil down to preferences. If you want the excitement of the "instant gamble" in your D&D, then having SoD there will suit you (this would be Bedrockgames); if the inconsistency bothers you and you want the game to all work on a consistent basis, and you're not bothered about "one off" gambles (this would be me), then they won't.

Pointing out to either of us that we're wrong to like what we like, or that BRG is wrong to say that he likes the excitement of poison being "extra special nasty" even if it doesn't match some sort of imagined "real world model" (which has any relevance why, exactly?), or that I'm wrong because there is no conceivable inconsistency between hit points being the mechanism by which heroes don't die in some situations but not being that in others is both a waste of time and offensive. If you like something different, cool - good for you. But don't argue that black is white because someone likes something different from you.
 

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To a great extent, yes. We've all heard stories of fantasy and monsters, and toddlers are commonly told such stories at bedtime, and have been throughout history. And those stories are about stuff we made up. If there were real monsters, they would be even more ingrained in culture than our fantastical ones are.

Would they? I see very few bedtime stories about slave ownership, sweatshop labour, serial killers and crooked politicians. The real world is largely off limits when dealing with children. And the fact is that those bedtime stories often dealt with creatures that the teller believed to be real. If we got it that wrong when we don't have a host of real monsters in our world, why would the "real monsters" world have greater accuracy?

If anything, my model for knowledge checks is "DM sets DC based on context". That suggests that people know a great deal about creatures that live in their area, that travelers and cosmopolitans know something about a lot of creatures, and that only academics know about creatures that are actually rare or do not live nearby.

So write a background that males you a well-travelled cosmopolitan academic - that way, you get the best skills. To a large extent, I find the 3rd Ed skill system was an attempt to codify use of character resources (skill points, feats) to be knowledgeable, persuasive, etc. and not leave this to who can best leverage their background and their personal abilities as a player, rather than the abilities of their character.

Taking 10 on a Knowledge check, while not explicitly forbidden by the rules, seems pretty dubious to me. And you definitely can't do it in combat, which is usually when you're identifying monsters.

I thought we saw the monster, teleported away then did all our homework and spell load changing. Now that I'm safe at home, let's consider what that creature was.

Research is yet another topic that the existing 3.5 Knowledge rules don't explicitly handle. CoC d20 has a separate skill for it.

CoC has always been a very research-focused game, so it needed a separate skill. It's been there since its Chaosium days.

There sure are a lot of really basic flaws in this system.

Much like hit points, we allow playability to override realism or even verisimilitude. That's hardly new.

The whole "untrained characters can't make checks of higher than DC 10" is another one.

You want knowledge beyond that, pay for the skill. Again, character resources dictate character abilities. I have no desire to see the Wizard with no ranks be more knowledgeable of religion than the Cleric, or beat out the Ranger re Nature. Not even at 1st level!

No. It means than in a d20 game, when people roll poorly, bad things can happen. You could just as easily be killed by a bunch of orcs rolling 20's.

Precisely. Just as your example means that, when people get lucky, SoD becomes less challenging.

First off, one weak fort NPC that they weren't really allied with died IIRC (and was raised), and the PCs were forming a wall preventing the undead from attacking a bunch on noncombatant NPCs. Second, I would never use a bodak or anything else out of the book straight up; this one was against a 6th (I think) level party, was advanced and had a template. It was chucking DC 20 saves at them and had an AC of 31, and and had 10 lesser undead creatures assisting it. Third, I don't remember giving any advice to bodaks, but yes it did target weaker characters and otherwise do sensible things.

Not sure how the raising of an NPC of negligible consequence fits with resurrection being restricted (doesn't Raise Dead fail on death effects?). If I had a death gaze and were inclined to engage in combat, I'd be targeting the fellows most effectively cutting down my lesser undead minions to prevent them getting to me - and getting out of Dodge if it looked like they were getting through. But then, Bodaks have INT 6 - so they should be no more tactically savvy than, say a 7 INT dump fighter.

And I suppose if you have L6 characters powered up to the point where DC 20 saves and hitting AC 31 is simply routine, and the resources to raise (resurrect?) an NPC are easy enough to come by that we'll use them on an NPC we have no real alliance with, then this creature isn't that big a deal. Let's add in a monster with SoD at a DC that is actually as challenging as a 15 would be for a typical L8 character and let it fight for a few rounds.

I also find it odd your initial arguments was that it's all about learning about the enemy, but now the enemy isn't really a threat anyway.

N'racc. I was conceding the believability issue largely and offering pemerton some possible subjective reasons why it still appeals to my sense of that. But that said, I do agree poison could be more realistic. It is highly simplified in the same way HP are. And as I told pemerton my main reason for supporting SoD is I find save or die effects exciting. To me they add a lot of fun to the game. I guess around things like certain poisons and magical abilities it feels appropriate to me to add in save or die. But I am not terribly worried about consistency across the system where some other effects that are arguably just as dangerous do not revive the same treatment

SoD seems to me a relation of the old "pull a random level on an artifact and see if your character gets powered up or disintegrated" style of play suggested by many old 1e artifacts. "Roll a die - oh, a 1, make a new character" doesn't strike me as a great game mechanic.
 

If we got it that wrong when we don't have a host of real monsters in our world, why would the "real monsters" world have greater accuracy?
Well, partially because D&D people have in some ways better (magical) methods of traveling, learning, and disseminating knowledge than we do today.

So write a background that males you a well-travelled cosmopolitan academic - that way, you get the best skills.
To some extent, yes. However, DMs (and players) are expected to self-police themselves to some extent. Saying that your 1st level character is the guy from the Dos Equis commercials is not forbidden by any rule, but is BS.

And there is not one clear "best". If your background is "I'm an elven druid, I've lived in these woods for a hundred years and I know them like the back of my hand", your common or assumed knowledge about that area is probably much deeper and more accurate than that of some dilettante adventurer. But you may be pretty clueless about other environs; effectively raising the DC for unfamiliar settings. Conversely, a well-traveled adventurer may be a jack of all trades, master of none.

To a large extent, I find the 3rd Ed skill system was an attempt to codify use of character resources (skill points, feats) to be knowledgeable, persuasive, etc. and not leave this to who can best leverage their background and their personal abilities as a player, rather than the abilities of their character.
I don't know about that. 3.0 was very open-ended in what a Knowledge skill could be and did not have the monster ID rule; it was codified more for 3.5 (not one of the better updates, IMO). The skill system is a mixed bag; not all skills seem to mean the same thing. Something like Jump has a very clear objective meaning (roll X, Jump Y feet), but Knowledge (as well as many other skills) seems more subjective to me. AFAICT, a 20 Knowledge check means whatever the DM says it does.

As a somewhat random sidebar, the entire skill system in 13th Age works off of players saying what their background is, leaving it to the player to define what they're spending their skill points on, and the DM to decide when they apply. Those guys seem to trust people to be reasonable about it (and one of them did write 3e).

Much like hit points, we allow playability to override realism or even verisimilitude. That's hardly new.
Except that in this case, the 10 + CR rule causes more difficulties in play than if you just ignored it completely, stuck with the general guidelines for Knowledge checks, and let the DM make a quick call.

Hit points aren't worth it either.

You want knowledge beyond that, pay for the skill. Again, character resources dictate character abilities. I have no desire to see the Wizard with no ranks be more knowledgeable of religion than the Cleric, or beat out the Ranger re Nature. Not even at 1st level!
Well, that would not happen (assuming the other characters maxed their main knowledge skill) unless the wizard had an Int mod 4 higher than the other character. If that's the case, I think Mr. Wizard the Genius deserves it. And so what if he does know more? Training quickly outpaces these ability score differences. If anything, I think the genius deserves more of a relative advantage. As another random sidebar, one of the minor class abilities I've added is to give several classes extra bonuses in their main knowledge skills to make sure that druids are the nature experts (nature sense expanded).

But why does this trained only line of reasoning apply only to Knowledge? A character who rolls a 20 on a Jump check jumps as far as the check result dictates. A character who rolls a 20 on Diplo gets the results of a trained diplomat. Why does a character rolling a 20 on Knowledge get no more than a character rolling a 10? It seems perfectly reasonable to me that even a person of average intelligence can answer a DC 20 question 5% of the time. People hear things. The whole Knowledge being trained only thing is another easy ignore in my book.

Precisely. Just as your example means that, when people get lucky, SoD becomes less challenging.
When people get lucky, any part of the game gets easier. When they get unlucky, the game tends not to go well. That's why we roll dice for everything, because we want random, unpredictable outcomes. No problem here.

Not sure how the raising of an NPC of negligible consequence fits with resurrection being restricted (doesn't Raise Dead fail on death effects?).
The NPCs importance to the PCs and his importance in general are different things. To explain, this NPC was a rich guy the characters met only due to a teleportation accident, resurrection in my world requires that a life be sacrificed in exchange for any resurrection, and his traveling party brought along a condemned criminal and resurrection scroll for that purpose, because they knew it was a dangerous trip.

If I had a death gaze and were inclined to engage in combat, I'd be targeting the fellows most effectively cutting down my lesser undead minions to prevent them getting to me - and getting out of Dodge if it looked like they were getting through. But then, Bodaks have INT 6 - so they should be no more tactically savvy than, say a 7 INT dump fighter.
Also, how are they going to get out of dodge with that speed? This bodak had 10 Int, and was played as such. He did the best he could. I believe the lesser undead were mowed down by fireballs from the party wizard, who most likely was smart enough to stay far away. Not much a slow-moving bodak can do.

And I suppose if you have L6 characters powered up to the point where DC 20 saves and hitting AC 31 is simply routine, and the resources to raise (resurrect?) an NPC are easy enough to come by that we'll use them on an NPC we have no real alliance with, then this creature isn't that big a deal. Let's add in a monster with SoD at a DC that is actually as challenging as a 15 would be for a typical L8 character and let it fight for a few rounds.
I suspect they killed it without hitting its AC. Magic missiles and such. And, the point of all this detail is that my PCs were a good bit more powerful than your standard array, standard gold, standard rules chumps (as I would hope most are), but so was this monster. It all balances out.

I also find it odd your initial arguments was that it's all about learning about the enemy, but now the enemy isn't really a threat anyway.
My initial arguments were about SoD not being an inordinate threat, in some part because knowledgeable PCs can mitigate that threat. This is your tangent.
 

SoD seems to me a relation of the old "pull a random level on an artifact and see if your character gets powered up or disintegrated" style of play suggested by many old 1e artifacts. "Roll a die - oh, a 1, make a new character" doesn't strike me as a great game mechanic.

It need not strike you as a great game mechanic for me to enjoy it or belief it is a perfectly useful tool for designers to draw on. At the same time, if this sort of thing doesn't appeal to you, that is absolutely cool (i am not terribly fond of critical hit charts, but I don't think they are bad design, and I can see how some folks like them----i even found them fun when someone ran me through the latest edition of The Morrow Project). Not everyone enjoys saves or die. Some folks do. For me it has a place in the D&D i like to play.
 

Even those types of situations have an "out" for players: Decide not to pull any levers.

When given an opportunity at a Deck of Many Things, for example, my standard answer to the question, "How many cards?" has always bee "Zero".

The risks always outweighed any possible benefits. Think about it: Imagine you, in real life, facing a tree with five holes in it. Inside one opening is a diamond worth 20,000,000 dollars. Inside another is a blade that will chop your hand off, maiming you at a minimum and possibly leaving you to bleed to death.

Would you stick your unprotected hand in any of those openings? I wouldn't. My life is worth more to me than $20,000,000. So, for that matter, is my hand.

And that's a "fair" bet, a 50/50 chance. (Yeah, there's a 60% chance nothing will happen, but all that does is give you a chance to change your mind. Maybe.)

Things like the "Pull a lever and get rich/powered up or get killed" gizmos are seldom a 50/50 in any D&D game I've ever played in, in any edition.
 

Even those types of situations have an "out" for players: Decide not to pull any levers.

When given an opportunity at a Deck of Many Things, for example, my standard answer to the question, "How many cards?" has always bee "Zero".

The risks always outweighed any possible benefits. Think about it: Imagine you, in real life, facing a tree with five holes in it. Inside one opening is a diamond worth 20,000,000 dollars. Inside another is a blade that will chop your hand off, maiming you at a minimum and possibly leaving you to bleed to death.

Would you stick your unprotected hand in any of those openings? I wouldn't. My life is worth more to me than $20,000,000. So, for that matter, is my hand.

And that's a "fair" bet, a 50/50 chance. (Yeah, there's a 60% chance nothing will happen, but all that does is give you a chance to change your mind. Maybe.)

Things like the "Pull a lever and get rich/powered up or get killed" gizmos are seldom a 50/50 in any D&D game I've ever played in, in any edition.

I have to admit I might put my hand in the opening. 20,000,000 is a lot of money, and I have student loans to pay:) Plus my family would be set for life. Risk is worth the potential reward in that case for me.
 

I have to admit I might put my hand in the opening. 20,000,000 is a lot of money, and I have student loans to pay:) Plus my family would be set for life. Risk is worth the potential reward in that case for me.
As a man with a family, and hence responsibilities, ask yourself this"
1) Can your family make it without $20,000,000?
2) Can your family make it without you?

Remember, they either get both, or neither. Very little in-between here.

You might be okay with dying. Would they be okay if you weren't there to help?
 

As a man with a family, and hence responsibilities, ask yourself this"
1) Can your family make it without $20,000,000?
2) Can your family make it without you?

Remember, they either get both, or neither. Very little in-between here.

You might be okay with dying. Would they be okay if you weren't there to help?

Yes, my wife is entirely capable without me. Plus it is 20,000,000 dollars. Sorry, but I am putting my hand in the opening:) it wouldn't just benefit my wife, but my mother, father, cousins, uncles and aunts. Too much good could come from this 20,000,000 dollars. Had you said 20,000, then I would not have taken the hole. But 20,000,000 is an epic ton of money.

though I have to say, we have not established that I have a 100% chance of dying from the wound. People lose hands and live, so there are three possibilities:

1) I die and get no money
2) I lose my hand, live, and get no money
3) I live and get money
 
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Unlike real life, if a PC dies we can just roll up another and keep playing. Dialing down the danger level to reduce the risk of a make believe persona kicking the bucket isn't worth the tradeoff. The loss of excitement that goes along with the risk is a loss the player will notice.
I think it's obvious that this won't be true for all D&D players.

That is, for some another PC can't just be rolled up and played instead - for whatever reason a particular PC is integral to the campaign, or that player's conception of it. And the nature of excitement, and who is thrilled by what, is also highly variable. For instance, I find combat in 4e more exciting than combat in Rolemaster, even though Rolemaster has much more of a "death lottery" aspect to it (via its crit rules) because of the pacing of 4e combat.

And on the subject of difference of taste, thanks [MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION] for your reply. If you want the "death lottery" aspect of SoD in your game, then poison is as good a place as any to put it, I guess!

On the chlorine gas issue, one of the first things I noticed as a new player reading through the Rolemaster bestiary 20-something years ago is that the Rolemaster green dragon breathes poison that engages that's system's poison mechanics rather than its attack table mechanics (this isn't as big a difference as in D&D, because RM is death-by-wounds rather than death-by-hit-point-attrition, but it is still a mechanical difference derived from D&D). And one interesting difference between HARP and RM (given that HARP is mostly RM-lite) is that HARP takes poisons and puts them onto an attack table like the rest of the system (so there is an Internal Poison attack table for poison needles, chlorine gas etc and an External Poison attack table for acid, dragon blood etc). I prefer the HARP approach for its greater mechanical consistency.
 

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On the chlorine gas issue, one of the first things I noticed as a new player reading through the Rolemaster bestiary 20-something years ago is that the Rolemaster green dragon breathes poison that engages that's system's poison mechanics rather than its attack table mechanics (this isn't as big a difference as in D&D, because RM is death-by-wounds rather than death-by-hit-point-attrition, but it is still a mechanical difference derived from D&D). And one interesting difference between HARP and RM (given that HARP is mostly RM-lite) is that HARP takes poisons and puts them onto an attack table like the rest of the system (so there is an Internal Poison attack table for poison needles, chlorine gas etc and an External Poison attack table for acid, dragon blood etc). I prefer the HARP approach for its greater mechanical consistency.

Lnking aspects of the system like this can definitely create more consistency (and so can the HARP approach). I think there are usually two reasons for not linking that sort of attack to the poison subsystem in a game (assuming the poison subsystem is a seperate mechanic): the first is that the designer simply overlooked doing so, the second is simplicity or reduction of referencing the book. I am actually working on a fantasy game now, and we have a poison and disease subsystem. In some cases, I have been reluctant to link poison attacks of more common monsters to it, simply because it is more cumbersome to employ the poison mechanic than the damage mechanic. In others I have not. My personal rationale for the decision is that the poisons are different, so if one happens to do a wound, while another engages the susbsystem, it should be okay. But it is still less consistent and the real reason is mainlybsimplicity, ease of play.
 

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