The ethics of ... death

[Elf Witch]

I don't have issues with them being in the game. I don't think they fit all campaign styles so depending on the feel of the game I want I modify them to do damage which can kill but not as bad as unmodified. I also talk to my players before hand if they don't want them in the game then I won't use them but the also lose the ability to have them.

I don't see them as bad game design I think there should be things in the game that can be scary and kill you easily. I think it is up to the DM to tailor things to his game and his players. I would like to see monsters and spells that are save or die have a sidebar that gives you the choice.

I don't understand the argument that Morrus brought up about taking players out of the game. That happens anytime a character dies. The only way to stop that is to take death out of the game completely. Any time you get into a combat situation your character could die.

 

[Savage Wombat]

If you think save or die sucks, try losing a character to failed system shock roll

My wife's character (were we married yet? I can't remember) activated a haste power, ran up to the boss monster that had defeated half the party, and killed it with her vorpal sword. And then dropped dead of a heart attack.

 

[Greenfield]

One thought that came to me during this discussion, which I posted in the "Banshee" thread, was the idea of a "kinder, gentler Death spell".

Instead of doing instant death, have such things do damage equal to the target's current hit points, plus one (or maybe five).

The character is down and dying, but can be saved if someone can get to them in time. It adds the drama of time pressure to play.

As a variation, have it do half that damage if the make their Save, to take that sort of thing out of the "All or nothing" class of spells.

It would still be a Death effect, meaning that if you fall from it then spells like Raise Deadstill won't work, but would eliminate the "Well, you're dead now. Grab some dice and start over" thing.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Correct me if I am wrong, Danny, but most of those seem to be multi-step slides into death. The guy was first paralyzed, and *then* got snatched. When you see the guy with the two-handed sword, there's a pretty good signal that he can deal out lots and lots of damage. One difference, then, is warning the player. Having the guy with the two handed sword walk towards you across the battle field, and you *choose* to engage, rather than have someone you didn't know about pop around the corner and cast Power Word, Death. Do you have a chance to take reasonable actions to mitigate circumstances?

The one who took the header into the pit was trying to shoulder blast a door...he had one chance to roll high enough to prevent himself from going off the narrow ledge behind it and failed.

The victim of the hidden fisher was snatched out of midair and, since she didn't make her save, the hit instantly paralyzed her. There was no chance the party could get to her in time...well, at all, actually. The one PC who had a spell that would enable someone to reach that spot was being eaten.

The crit victim was part of a group that was surprised by an ambush from concealed opponents. He never got to act- the crit was the first swing of the first combat. Note that this was not the first encounter- he had used his abilities and gear to evade certain other foes. But his death was all about one swing of sword. The order of events was different than a SoD spell- he failed to spot the foes, got critted then died as opposed to getting hit, failing a save and dying- but the number of rolls is the same.

So to me, those are every bit as SoD as a spell. Once event X happened- the door-busting, the hits- there was only one die roll that mattered, which is functionally no different than being struck by a SoD spell. Only one demise depended on actual damage being done. Heck, in 2 of those cases, PC resurrection wasn't even possible because the bodies were lost. At least with many SoD spells, you can bring the fallen back.

Besides, its not as if a combat against a foe with SoD spells has only one step before said spells are cast. Unless it is cast from concealment or surprise, there are still all the initiative rolls, the caster might have to make a concentration check if he is struck before he casts, etc.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Yes, but think about the number of steps required to achieve that:
1) Antagonist detects party, but is not detected themselves
2) Antagonist activates invisibility (activates ring, has buddy cast spell, or what have you)
3) Antagonist uses stealth to get in melee range
4) Antagonist rolls a hit
5) Antagonist rolls sufficient damage to bring PC to -10 in one shot.

There are several points of failure - the PCs can find the antagonist before they start to stealth. The PCs can detect the stealth. The antagonist can miss. The antagonist can fail to do sufficient damage. In context, this is generally not a one-roll, "Bang, you are dead!" scenario.

If the GM has engineered an antagonist such that the party *couldn't* detect it, and failing to hit or do enough damage really isn't going to happen, then, yes, this becomes very close to a death spell, and for purposes of these discussions, maybe the GM would want to tone it down a bit.

True, but I suspect one could construct a similar chain for death effects. You can see a bodak coming. You can roll a Knowledge check to know what it's about to do to you. You can identify a high level spellcaster. Spells can be interrupted. Death ward can be cast. There are a lot of permutations to these scenarios, but I suspect that to be hit with a death effect, there are usually precursor events that require resolution and which the characters may use to avoid the effect.

And regarding the martial aspect of it; I can definitely see scenarios under which assassins might be aware of the PCs by reputation, intel, or divination, and might have the opportunity to set up some dastardly plans.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I don't understand the argument that Morrus brought up about taking players out of the game. That happens anytime a character dies. The only way to stop that is to take death out of the game completely. Any time you get into a combat situation your character could die.

Its a caution: if a DM permits death of PCs, he should be prepared to have something for the player to do or a way to get the player back in the game because sitting there watching others game is not everyone's idea of fun.

 

[Stormonu]

I have to say I fairly resent any effect that can kill a player with one bad roll - save or die definately falls into this. I'd certainly prefer a system where you get two to three shots to ward off impending doom. Medusa gazes that slowly turn you into a statue, bodak gazes that "freeze the life blood" before you drop dead, a banshee wail that drops you to your knees in pain and terror before stopping your heart are all effects I like better (spead over a couple rounds before death may actually take place) rather than "you fall over dead". Call me a softie, but I still believe I'd see enough challenge and character death in the game that players would still feel excitement and fear of loss and defeat without instant death.

However, D&D has pretty much always tried to reconcile easy death with spells, items and abilities to bring back the dead, rather than concentrate on preventing the death in the first place. I'm not much for that; I'd rather death be a bit more rare in the game rather than be easier to come back from the dead.

 

[Elf Witch]

Its a caution: if a DM permits death of PCs, he should be prepared to have something for the player to do or a way to get the player back in the game because sitting there watching others game is not everyone's idea of fun.

Usually what I do is ask the player if he wants to run a NPC if it is not possible to get his character raised right away. If he has decided on a new character then he can build it while the game continues. I will take a break and sit with him and get a rough idea of what he wants and what his background might be and then toss him back into the game. I find away to make it work and make sense. Once I did it by saying he was a wizard teleporting some where else and had only one charge left on his wand and he screwed up and teleported right into the mist of the action.

It is not always easy especially if your players like good solid role playing reasons for a new member to show up. But it is necessary if you are going to have death in the game regardless of how that death happens.

 

[Balesir]

I'm not sure which edition(s) of D&D you are speaking to in the above post, but 3.5 has massive damage threshold rules (as well as a few variant options) that can be found in the SRD... so I don't really see an inconsistency in 3.5 as you present it in the example above. There is the 50 hp threshold, the Con threshold, HD threshold and the size based threshold... depending on the feel and playstyle one wants. There are also save failure variants in the SRD as well so that a DM can further customize how deadly he wants these to be...

I wasn't specifically addressing any edition of D&D; my answer on SoD-like effects is "if the primary method of representing character "life" is hit points or the equivalent, I don't like save-or-die - otherwise I have no specific, deep seated dislike of it". If there's a version of D&D where the general "default" character life/death mechanism is not hit points, SoD would be fine. Otherwise I'd prefer it not to be there.

 

[Guest 85555]

I think this is very much dependent on playstyle. Personally i like having SoD in rpgs and feel they spice up play. Not everyone does and some folks will want built in mechanisms to nerf them.