The Evolution of the Fighter

[malkav666]

Yeah, extra damage gets wasted.

But did you include the extra attack from the AD&D fighter every other round? (if the fighter is dropping a goblin every hit an extraattack everyotther round will up his kill count by roughly 50%)

love,

malkav

 

[quill18]

What feats does the 4e fighter have?

The average damage of 9.5 seems to reflect the Weapon Focus feat (4.5 Average + 4 Strength + 1 Weapon Focus), but I'm not seeing the bonus feat from being human. Maybe I'm just missing something.

Personally, I'd probably go with Toughness for the extra HPs and the extra point of healing when using Second Wind.

Also, as a point of curiosity...are you taking into account the +2 to defense gained when using Second Wind?

 

[quill18]

Final Results-

Here are the Fighters ranked by their BadAssery Score (1.0 = Chuck Norris; 0 = Ghandi)-

AD&D Fighter - 8 kills/11 rounds = .72
3e Fighter- 9.5 kills/19 rounds = .50
BD&D Fighter- 3.2 kills/7 rounds = .46
OD&D Fighter- 2.8 kills/7 rounds = .40
4e Fighter- 5 kills/18 rounds = .28

Objection! The 4e Fighter kills more goblins that the BD&D and OD&D fighter and survives longer that the AD&D, BD&D, and OD&D fighter...how could that POSSIBLY translate to a worse score?

I'd go with Number of Rounds Survived + (2xGoblins Killed)

3e Fighter- 9.5 kills/19 rounds = 38
4e Fighter- 5 kills/18 rounds = 28
AD&D Fighter - 8 kills/11 rounds = 27
BD&D Fighter- 3.2 kills/7 rounds = 13.4
OD&D Fighter- 2.8 kills/7 rounds = 12.6

And keep in mind, I still think that the 4e Fighter is getting short-changed one feat.

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EDIT: I'd also like to point out that the evolution of the goblin is the most significant in the jump to 4e. Goblin minions would probably be a closer approximation to the puny goblins from pre-4th editions, but I won't press the issue.

 

[mhensley]

But did you include the extra attack from the AD&D fighter every other round? (if the fighter is dropping a goblin every hit an extraattack everyotther round will up his kill count by roughly 50%)

love,

malkav

Yeah, I made that change to him. That what pushed him past the 3e fighter.

 

[mhensley]

Objection! The 4e Fighter kills more goblins that the BD&D and OD&D fighter and survives longer that the AD&D, BD&D, and OD&D fighter...how could that POSSIBLY translate to a worse score?

I'd go with Number of Rounds Survived + (2xGoblins Killed)

3e Fighter- 9.5 kills/19 rounds = 38
4e Fighter- 5 kills/18 rounds = 28
AD&D Fighter - 8 kills/11 rounds = 27
BD&D Fighter- 3.2 kills/7 rounds = 13.4
OD&D Fighter- 2.8 kills/7 rounds = 12.6

And keep in mind, I still think that the 4e Fighter is getting short-changed one feat.

That's certainly another valid way of looking at it. I prefer to go by the number of butts kicked in the shortest amount of time.

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that the evolution of the goblin is the most significant in the jump to 4e. Goblin minions would probably be a closer approximation to the puny goblins from pre-4th editions, but I won't press the issue.

That's another argument that I can see and I did consider that, but I felt that the Goblin Blackblade was closer in spirit to the basic Goblin of earlier editions. For example, a Goblin in 3e might just kick your Fighter's butt- he could crit you for 12 pts of damage and down goes Frazier. A Goblin Minion has almost zero chance to take you on one on one- even with a crit he does what, 8 damage? Which is less than a third of your hit points. Big deal.

 

[mhensley]

What feats does the 4e fighter have?

The average damage of 9.5 seems to reflect the Weapon Focus feat (4.5 Average + 4 Strength + 1 Weapon Focus), but I'm not seeing the bonus feat from being human. Maybe I'm just missing something.

Personally, I'd probably go with Toughness for the extra HPs and the extra point of healing when using Second Wind.

Also, as a point of curiosity...are you taking into account the +2 to defense gained when using Second Wind?

Honestly, I know very little about 4e (I've played a total of 9 hours so far) and depended on guys in the rules forum for the build. But from what experience I do have running the dwarf fighter pregen, these numbers are pretty close to the truth. Killing anything other than minions in 4e is a slow process. For the experiment here, I had the Fighter blow through his best moves first and he killed 2 Goblins in the first 4-5 rounds. After that though, it takes 4 rounds on average to get a kill.

No, I didn't take the bonus from second wind into account. I'll take a look at that.

 

[Imp]

If you really wanted to jack up the AD&D fighter's kill rate vs. goblins, weapon spec (dart) is the way to go I'd think. What is that, 4 attacks/ round @ 1d3+2? I forget exactly. (To tell the truth I am mostly going from Baldur's Gate with that.) With the scenario described he'd probably live 'til he ran out of darts.

 

[pawsplay]

If you really wanted to jack up the AD&D fighter's kill rate vs. goblins, weapon spec (dart) is the way to go I'd think. What is that, 4 attacks/ round @ 1d3+2? I forget exactly. (To tell the truth I am mostly going from Baldur's Gate with that.) With the scenario described he'd probably live 'til he ran out of darts.

IIRC, a dart specialist does damage than a melee fighter with any non-divine Str score. Darts get more attacks, specialists get extra attacks as if a higher level, and it's extra damage on each dart for specialization.

You can get a similar effect with a halfling paragon master thrower in 3e, but it's not as cool, because 2h weapons still win.

 

[Norhg]

Are you considering critical hits?
Rerolled initiative between goblins?

To tactically optimize the 4e fighter, give it tide of iron and have it ready an action: "as soon as a foe has moved up to me, I use tide of iron to push it back" to negate a good 65% of all attacks on him. (Or the goblin could start charging, but he hasn't up until now so I imagine that might be impossible for him? either way, Your call)

 

[Glyfair]

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that the evolution of the goblin is the most significant in the jump to 4e. Goblin minions would probably be a closer approximation to the puny goblins from pre-4th editions, but I won't press the issue.

Of course, in AD&D editions higher level fighters really start jumping in effective against goblins. They get 1 attack per level against less than 1 hit die creatures (which goblins qualify for with 1-7 hp).