The FAQ on Sunder ...

[Fifth Element]

Then they made a mistake in including it under "Standard Action" instead of under "Action Type: Varies". This has been my stance on the issue from the start. If Sunder is not its own standard action, it shouldn't be under the "Standard Action" section of table 8-2.

No. Given these 2 assumptions, it's listed in the same section of the table as attack (melee), since it is a use of attack (melee). Would it have made sense to list attack (melee) as a standard action, but to list sunder (which is a use of a melee attack) as action type varies?

 

[Fifth Element]

As I said, the FAQ is not errata, and doesn't move "Sunder" from "Standard Action" to "Action Type: Varies" on the table. So it doesn't fit the presentation of the rules.

See above. Assuming the designers' intent as above, errata is not necessary since the interpretation makes sense given the presentation of the rules.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

No. Given these 2 assumptions, it's listed in the same section of the table as attack (melee), since it is a use of attack (melee).

... In which case, you may only use it when you take the Attack (Melee) standard action.

... In which case, you may not use it on an AoO or a Charge.

Fair?

 

[Fifth Element]

... In which case, you may only use it when you take the Attack (Melee) standard action.

... In which case, you may not use it on an AoO or a Charge.

Fair?

No, because by that logic you could only make a melee attack when you use the Attack (Melee) standard action.

 

[Elethiomel]

No. Given these 2 assumptions, it's listed in the same section of the table as attack (melee), since it is a use of attack (melee). Would it have made sense to list attack (melee) as a standard action, but to list sunder (which is a use of a melee attack) as action type varies?

No. Given the intent you specify, it would not be a use of the action "Attack (melee)", it would be the use of a melee attack, and the actions that give melee attacks vary. Hence it should be under "Action type: Varies" if they intended it to be so used.

 

[Fifth Element]

No. Given the intent you specify, it would not be a use of the action "Attack (melee)", it would be the use of a melee attack, and the actions that give melee attacks vary. Hence it should be under "Action type: Varies" if they intended it to be so used.

Then why do they not list Attack (melee) as action type varies? When using the Attack (melee) action, sundering would be a standard action, just as a regular melee attack would be. But when the melee attack is gained from some other source, it would not be a standard action. Just like a melee attack.

What's the difference? Why would listing Attack (melee) as a standard action not mean that all melee attacks are standard actions, but Sunder (attack) being so listed means that it is always a standard action?

 

[Elethiomel]

Then why do they not list Attack (melee) as action type varies?

Again we get back to what I initially stated was the flaw in your reasoning. The action "Attack (melee)" and the concept "melee attack" are separate. They are not the same thing. They are different. "Attack (melee)" grants a "melee attack". So do many other actions. That does not mean other actions grant "Attack (melee)" actions.

When using the Attack (melee) action, sundering would be a standard action, just as a regular melee attack would be. But when the melee attack is gained from some other source, it would not be a standard action. Just like a melee attack.

What's the difference? Why would listing Attack (melee) as a standard action not mean that all melee attacks are standard actions, but Sunder (attack) being so listed means that it is always a standard action?

Because "Attack (melee)" is an action that grants a melee attack. So is initiating the "Bonecrusher" strike from the Tome of Battle. So is casting the "Shocking Grasp" spell.

All these things grant melee attacks. That does not mean that every time you take a melee attack, you are taking the Attack (melee) action, casting Shocking Grasp and initiating the Bonecrusher maneuver. The relationship is one-way.

Sunder, however, is different. Under the Sunder description it tells you what you do when you take the Sunder action. The Sunder action is a standard action according to table 8-2.
Take Disarm as a counterexample. Under the description for Disarm it tells you what you do when you take the Disarm action. The Disarm action is a "Action type: Varies" action that can (because Disarm carries footnote 7) be taken in place of any melee attack - even an AoO.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Then why do they not list Attack (melee) as action type varies? When using the Attack (melee) action, sundering would be a standard action, just as a regular melee attack would be. But when the melee attack is gained from some other source, it would not be a standard action. Just like a melee attack.

They don't list melee attack at all. So if Sunder is simply a use of a melee attack, it should not be listed at all. If it's something that replaces a melee attack - or a use of a melee attack that requires an entry on the table - it should be Action Type Varies. If melee attack were listed on the table, it would be Action Type Varies.

Attack (melee) is a standard action, not action type varies. It's the standard action you take that lets you make a melee attack.

By placing Sunder in the table as a standard action, they have made Sunder the equivalent not of a melee attack, but of the Attack (melee) action.

When you charge, you don't move twice your speed and then take the Attack (melee) action; you move twice your speed and then make a melee attack. Since the table makes Sunder the equivalent of the Attack (melee) action and not the equivalent of a melee attack, you can't take the Charge action to move twice your speed and sunder.

What's the difference? Why would listing Attack (melee) as a standard action not mean that all melee attacks are standard actions, but Sunder (attack) being so listed means that it is always a standard action?

If Sunder were simply a use of a melee attack, the action you take in order to sunder when you have a standard action available would be Attack (melee), and Sunder would not appear on the table as a standard action. If it appeared on the table at all, it would appear as Action Type Varies... just as a melee attack would if it appeared on the table.

But Sunder does appear on the table as a standard action, which means that if you wish to Sunder when you only have a standard action available, you must take the Sunder action, and not the Attack (melee) action. Since the Attack (melee) action, which grants a single melee attack, thus cannot be used to Sunder, we can see that it is not simply the availability of a melee attack that allows one to Sunder, but rather the taking of the Sunder standard action.

-Hyp.

 

[Fifth Element]

Again we get back to what I initially stated was the flaw in your reasoning. The action "Attack (melee)" and the concept "melee attack" are separate. They are not the same thing. They are different. "Attack (melee)" grants a "melee attack". So do many other actions. That does not mean other actions grant "Attack (melee)" actions.

Indeed. When you take the Attack (melee) action, it's a standard action. To phrase it the same way, then, when you take the Sunder (attack) action (which is listed on table 8-2), you use a standard action. But that is not the only way you can sunder, just as Attack (melee) is not the only way you can attack. The description of sunder says that you can use a melee attack to strike an opponent's weapon. It does not limit it in any way.

So just the same as a melee attack does not require the Attack (melee) action, from this perspective sundering does not require the Sunder (attack) action. Because under the description of sunder, it states that you can use a melee attack to strike an opponent's weapon. It does not state you use Attack (melee) to strike an opponent's weapon. It says "a melee attack", which as you have pointed out several times is not the same thing as Attack (melee), or the melee attack action.

If the Attack (melee) action does not need to be listed as action type varies, then the Sunder (attack) action does not need to be listed as action type varies either.

 

[Fifth Element]

Sunder, however, is different. Under the Sunder description it tells you what you do when you take the Sunder action. The Sunder action is a standard action according to table 8-2.

You're assuming, of course, that the only way to sunder is to use the Sunder (attack) action. Under my interpretation, this is as plainly false as an assertion that in order to make a melee attack you need to use the Attack (melee) action.

The fact that the sunder description says you can use a melee attack to sunder means that whenever you make a melee attack you can sunder (under this interpretation). The fact that Sunder (attack) is listed as a standard action has no effect on the ability to use any melee attack as a sunder attempt, just as the fact that Attack (melee) is listed as a standard action has no effect on the other situations that may grant you a melee attack.