D&D 5E The Fighter/Martial Problem (In Depth Ponderings)

[ECMO3]

My ability to play my choice of character concept should never be pitted against my ability to play an effective character, I disagree with quite literally everything you’ve said here.

A PC is never is ineffective because of class or subclass alone though. The only things that can really make a character design truely ineffective are poor rolls or multiple poor decisions without regard to mechanics and usually you can still be effective even with those.

You can pick any class and subclass in the game and be effective with average or better rolls.

Not all are of equal power though. If you want to be the most powerful player at the table you need to roll well, pick a powerful class, powerful subclass and powerful options in that class/subclass.

 

[Zardnaar]

Ok, where do you see anything resembling Cleave. This is the 1E version of extra attack.

I called it cleave. Just a name but it's basically what it is.

 

[ECMO3]

I disagree.

Most Subclasses at least turn online.

The Champion just gives yo +1 AC and less that 1 damage per round

That is not true.

There are multiple fighting styles, including one that gives a flat +2 to damage per attack (+4 to damage per round), additionally a Champion gets an extra ASI at level 6 as compared to a Barbarian that gives at another +1 (which would be +6 to damage per round) and those bonuses are always on.

We have to agree to disagree. The Hunter Ranger is stronger than the Champion Fighter levels 3-10.

Sure, if he uses spells. All casters are ahead of the Champion.

Champions isn't middle of the pack. It's just above the Berserker Barbarian.

No it isn't, at most of the levels between 3 and 10 it is well ahead of most Barbarian builds.

Champion Fighters suck compared to any character that has Extra Attack than isn't a Monk or Berserker. That isn't the middle

This is just false. Also I will point out that "isn't a Monk or Berserker" constitutes 11 different subclasses

Guess we have to agree to disagree but math isn't on your side.

It is on my side. Put up your awesome Battlerager Barbarian at any level above 6 and I will show you.

 

[ECMO3]

I called it cleave. Just a name but it's basically what it is.

No it is the 1E version of extra attack. I am very familiar with the page you showed as I played 1E on and off for 35 years. It shows the attack progression.

At level 1-6 it is one attack a round, level 7-12 1.5 attacks a round, and 13+ 2 attacks per round. If you got weapon specialization this changed to 1.5, 2 and 2.5 respectively.

This is as compares to the 5E fighter that gets 1 attack levels 1-4, 2 attacks 5-10, 3 attacks 11-19 and 4 attacks at level 20.

I am less familiar with Cleave, but as I recall it, you got to make an additional attack when you downed someone.

 

[Zardnaar]

No it is the 1E version of extra attack. I am very familiar with the page you showed as I played 1E on and off for 35 years. It shows the attack progression.

At level 1-6 it is one attack a round, level 7-12 1.5 attacks a round, and 13+ 2 attacks per round. If you got weapon specialization this changed to 1.5, 2 and 2.5 respectively.

This is as compares to the 5E fighter that gets 1 attack levels 1-4, 2 attacks 5-10, 3 attacks 11-19 and 4 attacks at level 20.

I am less familiar with Cleave, but as I recall it, you got to make an additional attack when you downed someone.

That's a cleave effect.

Terms from 3E you drop someone you get another attack.

 

[ECMO3]

Terms from 3E you drop someone you get another attack.

Yes, There is no getting attacks for dropping anyone in 1E. Your number of attacks are fixed based on your level and in rare cases the number of hit dice the enemy has.

A 10th level fighter fighting a 1-1 Hit Dice Goblin can theoretically attack it 10 times a round. If he misses every single time he can still attack 10 times around.

The same fighter fighting a 1 Hit Dice Orcs and he can attack once the first round of combat and twice the second round of combat. Again hitting, missing or downing does not change that.

Also the way declare intentions works really monkeyed with extra attacks. In the example with a 10th level figther making 10 attacks, he needs to declare at the start of the round before any dice are rolled who he will attack.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes, There is no getting attacks for dropping anyone in 1E. Your number of attacks are fixed based on your level and the number of hit dice the enemy has.

a 10th level fighter surrounded by 1-1 Hit Dice Goblins can attack 10 times a round. If he misses every single time he can still attack 10 times around.

Surround the same fighter by 1 Hit Dice Orcs and he can attack once the first round of combat and twice the second round of combat. Again hitting, missing or downing does not change that.

Ah may have misread it.

 

[Minigiant]

People thought Rangers sucked but early in 5E I saw several hunters in action and yeah they're good at least then.

People thinking Rangers was weak was a meme. Beastmaster was weak but even Beastmaster Rangers were stronger than Champion Fighters.

And no one said the Hunter Ranger was weak. Ranger had a lot of bad class features. But the class features that didn't suck were great. And all but one* subclass are freaking brutal. Flavor and raw power. Character power and strength.

*until they "fixed" it

That is not true.

There are multiple fighting styles, including one that gives a flat +2 to damage per attack (+4 to damage per round), additionally a Champion gets an extra ASI at level 6 as compared to a Barbarian that gives at another +1 (which would be +6 to damage per round) and those bonuses are always on.

Fighting styles don't stack.

If you choose Dueling at level1,your second fighting style won't boost your longsword damage unless you take Superior Technique.

If there is a Longsword Champion fighter and a Longsword Battlemaster Fighter in the same party (I know 2 of the most popular class at the same table), the Champion's player will notice the Battlemaster's higher damage and versatility if they pay attention.

Same with a Champion and a Ranger or Paladin. Or a Barbarian that isn't a Berserker or Battlerager (I forgot about that trash)

Sure, if he uses spells. All casters are ahead of the Champion.

And that's good design?

No it isn't, at most of the levels between 3 and 10 it is well ahead of most Barbarian builds.

We'll have to agreee to disagree. The Champion Fighter to me is weaker than most warriors until it gets its 3rd attack at level 11.

It is on my side. Put up your awesome Battlerager Barbarian at any level above 6 and I will show you.

Battlerager sucks. I totally forgot about that trash.
Champion is worse than a Battlemaster or EK or other EK or RK or AA or PDK.
And you even admitted its worse than any halfcaster.

How is the Champion being only stronger than the poorest designed class/subclass combos proof that it isn't itself poorly designed and better regulated as its own class?

 

[ezo]

proof that it isn't itself poorly designed and better regulated as its own class?

If you don't mind a brief recap, why do you think Champion is poorly designed and why should it (of all things) be its own class?

 

[Minigiant]

If you don't mind a brief recap, why do you think Champion is poorly designed and why should it (of all things) be its own class?

1. Improved Critical barely adds additional damage. It's just 1 additional crit every 20 attacks.
2. Remarkable Athlete barely does anything. +2 for a few checks.
3. Additional Fighting Style barely does anything because fighting styles only affect one type of weapon. If you take GWF, no other FS will affect your greatsword
   1. Except Superior Technique

In easier terms, there isn't enough design space to be good AND simple.
A class has 20 levels to build a concept. A subclass only 5.
Any decent designer could create a simple warrior with 20 levels to work with.
Few can do so with 5 when you are already stuck with the fighter chassis.

Like someone said, you could easily make simple warrior with just flat damage bonuses.
But a fighter subclass is only allowed 5 levels to do this.

• 3rd
• 7th
• 10th
• 15th
• 18th

Makes it harder. WOTC tried with the Brute and it blew the Champion out the park so bad it was abandoned.
A full class has 20 levels. Especially if you want it to be simple and only have 1 class feature per level.