D&D 5E The Fighter Problem

[Flamestrike]

Its a dangerous assumption about fightets getting more attacks at least until higher levels.A hunter ranger can often get more attacks in than a fighter.

Only if they select Horde breaker and only if there is a creature within 5' of the original target.

Fighters on the other hand at the same level have Action surge, and 4 precision attacks (+1d8 to hit, choose after seeing the attack roll) to land those sharpshooter -5/+10's (or menacing attacks if they hit without precision attack, for the extra 1d8 damage and the frightened condition stopping the target from moving closer on top of the d8+13 damage).

The Hunter ranger above has hunters mark a few times per day, for an extra 1d6 damage per round. Hes using his bonus action to shift it though.

Presuming ranged fighters, the fighter has archery style from 1st (our ranger has to wait till 2nd level) and has his Dexterity maxed to 20 by 6th level (assuming both are Vumans for Sharpshooter at 1st). By this stage extra attack is online, meaning our fighter is letting off 4 arrows with action surge 1/ short rest.

Our Ranger has to wait tol 8th level to max his Dex (at which point the Fighter is picking up something like Lucky for even better accuracy, or Resilient Wisdom. He also picked up another superiority die at 7th level). At 10th level our fighter gets another feat (lets go with Martial adept, giving him 6 superiority die now) and his dice turn into d10's. At 11th level he gets 3 attacks per round (or six when he action surges).

You keep saying they are not even comparable, but you're wrong.

 

[Zardnaar]

Only if they select Horde breaker and only if there is a creature within 5' of the original target.

Fighters on the other hand at the same level have Action surge, and 4 precision attacks (+1d8 to hit, choose after seeing the attack roll) to land those sharpshooter -5/+10's (or menacing attacks if they hit without precision attack, for the extra 1d8 damage and the frightened condition stopping the target from moving closer on top of the d8+13 damage).

The Hunter ranger above has hunters mark a few times per day, for an extra 1d6 damage per round. Hes using his bonus action to shift it though.

Presuming ranged fighters, the fighter has archery style from 1st (our ranger has to wait till 2nd level) and has his Dexterity maxed to 20 by 6th level (assuming both are Vumans for Sharpshooter at 1st). By this stage extra attack is online, meaning our fighter is letting off 4 arrows with action surge 1/ short rest.

Our Ranger has to wait tol 8th level to max his Dex (at which point the Fighter is picking up something like Lucky for even better accuracy, or Resilient Wisdom. He also picked up another superiority die at 7th level). At 10th level our fighter gets another feat (lets go with Martial adept, giving him 6 superiority die now) and his dice turn into d10's. At 11th level he gets 3 attacks per round (or six when he action surges).

You keep saying they are not even comparable, but you're wrong.

Hordebreaker seems to trigger alot and hunters quarry lasts an hour so in effect its on most of the time by the mid levels. A bonus 1d6 per attack more ir kess all the time plus a 1d8 or extra attack tends to beat a fightets damage even with action surge.

And the ranger has spells and skills and exploration support while they deal similar damage.

 

[mellored]

Hordebreaker seems to trigger alot and hunters quarry lasts an hour so in effect its on most of the time by the mid levels. A bonus 1d6 per attack more ir kess all the time plus a 1d8 or extra attack tends to beat a fightets damage even with action surge.

1d6+5 from the bonus feat (crossbow expertise) is more that +1d6 on 2 attacks with hunter's quarry, closer to 3 times.
Action surge is 2 extra attacks, and precision strike is effectively 3 extra attacks = fighter get's 5 extra attacks per shot rest.
So hordebreaker would have to trigger 6 or 7 times per short rest to match the fighter.

That's before you get sharpshooter and 11th level, both which favor the fighter even more.


Fighter absolutely loses on utility though.


Though I still don't see why we barbarian/ranger/fighter are separate classes.

 

[Ashkelon]

1d6+5 from the bonus feat (crossbow expertise) is more that +1d6 on 2 attacks with hunter's quarry, closer to 3 times.
Action surge is 2 extra attacks, and precision strike is effectively 3 extra attacks = fighter get's 5 extra attacks per shot rest.
So hordebreaker would have to trigger 6 or 7 times per short rest to match the fighter.

That's before you get sharpshooter and 11th level, both which favor the fighter even more.


Fighter absolutely loses on utility though.


Though I still don't see why we barbarian/ranger/fighter are separate classes.

At 6th level, a fighter who has both crossbow expert and sharpshooter will not have a 20 Dex. He will have a 16 Dex. Which means the bonus action attack from crossbow expert will only deal 1d6 + 3 damage, not 1d6+5. At 8th level, both the fighter and the ranger can have the same feat compliment, but the fighter will be at 18 Dex so will have +1 attack and damage above the ranger.

Also, for the hunter ranger, doesn't it make more sense to go for crossbow expert before sharpshooter. With bonus damage from hunters mark, every attack the hunter makes will deal 2d6+3 damage. And one attack per round will deal 1d8 more damage (or the hunter will make one additional attack per round at a nearby target).

Either way, the feat the fighter has will not make up for the lack of damage dealing class abilities. Nor will it make up for the lack of class utility.

 

[Xeviat]

Though I still don't see why we barbarian/ranger/fighter are separate classes.

Because the Barbarian and Ranger have different stories from the Fighter. The Barbarian lacks professional training and simply fights on instinct. The Ranger is a hunter who is one with, or at least on good terms with, the magical forces of nature.

The Fighter, on the other hand, is a highly trained warrior, whether self trained or professionally trained. That's the area one would need to draw upon to add more flavor and story to the Fighter. It would probably be best to fit ribbons into their subclasses. But, I've always thought that commoners and other "npc class" types should respect fighters more (the other classes are magical or mysterious or thieves), but that doesn't quite hold enough water.


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[mellored]

At 6th level, a fighter who has both crossbow expert and sharpshooter will not have a 20 Dex. He will have a 16 Dex. Which means the bonus action attack from crossbow expert will only deal 1d6 + 3 damage, not 1d6+5. At 8th level, both the fighter and the ranger can have the same feat compliment, but the fighter will be at 18 Dex so will have +1 attack and damage above the ranger.

Fair.

Still, it means the ranger needs 5 hordebreakers per short rest to match the fighter.
Or 7 rounds of the bonus 1d8's.

Also, for the hunter ranger, doesn't it make more sense to go for crossbow expert before sharpshooter. With bonus damage from hunters mark, every attack the hunter makes will deal 2d6+3 damage. And one attack per round will deal 1d8 more damage (or the hunter will make one additional attack per round at a nearby target).

Hunter's mark and crossbow expertise both take a bonus action, it would be very unlikely to use both very often.

And hunter's mark and the extra 1d8 have negative synergy with sharpshooter. The more damage you do, the more the -5 to hit hurts.


The ranger isn't far behind, but still behind the fighter in damage.
And the fighter is way behind in utility.

 

[Gladius Legis]

At 6th level, a fighter who has both crossbow expert and sharpshooter will not have a 20 Dex. He will have a 16 Dex. Which means the bonus action attack from crossbow expert will only deal 1d6 + 3 damage, not 1d6+5. At 8th level, both the fighter and the ranger can have the same feat compliment, but the fighter will be at 18 Dex so will have +1 attack and damage above the ranger.

+1 to attack alone makes a BIG difference with the Sharpshooter trade turned on. Around a 20% DPR difference.

Also, for the hunter ranger, doesn't it make more sense to go for crossbow expert before sharpshooter. With bonus damage from hunters mark, every attack the hunter makes will deal 2d6+3 damage. And one attack per round will deal 1d8 more damage (or the hunter will make one additional attack per round at a nearby target).

You're conveniently forgetting the first round of combat where you'd have to choose between casting/designating Hunter's Mark or making the CE attack, since they both use up your bonus action.

Either way, the feat the fighter has will not make up for the lack of damage dealing class abilities. Nor will it make up for the lack of class utility.

Action Surge alone is much better than any damage ability the Ranger gets. And if the Fighter is a Battle Master so are Precision Attack and (if melee) Riposte. Also things you conveniently forgot to mention.

 

[Sacrosanct]

No its true but there are class abilities better than a feat imho.

This doesn't jive with your earlier positions. I've seen you complain a lot about overpowered feats in the past, but rarely about overpowered class features.

 

[Zardnaar]

This doesn't jive with your earlier positions. I've seen you complain a lot about overpowered feats in the past, but rarely about overpowered class features.

Missed my posts about bless? Thres maybe 3 feats that overshadow the rest.

People focus on damage a bit to much I think blinds them to some interesting things. Paladins aura is a bit more subtle I suppose.

 

[ccs]

To me, these comments are what's interesting to consider about the Fighter.

What about it is unique?

A quick scan of it's class features (or the other 97 pages of this thread) answers that.

What stories do its subclasses tell?

As many as your imagination can supply. Part of this is your backstory, the rest happens during play. So I don't really see how the book alone could ever answer your question.

What does the fighter do when not swinging a blade or shooting a bow?

Well that's a bit vague. Are you talking about within an encounter? While exploring? While in some social situation? Overall, in the big picture, during downtime? What?
In general I guess my answer would default to skill/tool checks. Wich is what everybody else does when not fighting....
If this is related to the stories each sub-class tells then that's up to the playerto determine.