The final word on DPR, feats and class balance

[Tony Vargas]

That just makes everyone generically competent at the same things with no real differentiation other than "martial" or "magic".

The suggestion to reduce at-will caster damage just increases the difference between casters & non-casters.

I find it interesting that in spite of all the final words on critcal flaws and how bad the game is that so many people run canpaign session after campaign session week after week.

Human nature's funny, that way. The accepted way to do something can be just terrible - let's treat anemia by bleeding the patient; let's use explosives to power our vehicles; let's pump invisible poisonous gasses into our homes; let's resolve legal disputes with trial by ordeal - but it doesn't stop people, often for many generations.

When you get perfect balance, you get a boring game.

Right. So, chess and go are boring games. Gotcha. We should let the millions of people who play them know that they're actually bored, no?
(Sorry for the snark, but the statement was a little out there.)

Balance is a quality that opens up more ways to play a game, chess & go have tremendous depth of play in spite of relative simplicity because so many moves & strategies can be viable.
That can be intimidating or challenging or even overwhelming, but it's unlikely to be boring, unless you simply refuse to engage it.
Imbalance, once you've identified the one (or few) viable choice(s), OTOH, can get pretty boring.

Chess is not perfectly balanced. White wins around 55% of the time, due to the advantage of moving first.
Perfect balance is very difficult to achieve.

Very difficult or impossible as perfection may be, it doesn't invalidate excellence nor excuse mediocrity.

Not only should everyone do the same damage in a round, everyone should be able to do it at the same range, to the same area of effect while being the same race with the same stats with the same class. That way things are perfectly balanced.

That's a complete absence of balance at chargen. With no choices, there's nothing to balance anything else against.

 

[Caliban]

The suggestion to reduce at-will caster damage just increases the difference between casters & non-casters.

Yes, I acknowledged that - caster or non-caster becomes the only real difference between characters. All casters are pretty much the same, all non-casters are pretty much the same.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Yes, I acknowledged that - caster or non-caster becomes the only real difference between characters. All casters are pretty much the same, all non-casters are pretty much the same.

OK, I get that observation - except for the 'becomes' part. ;P

Seriously, though, I didn't notice where Two-Six was changing the features, spell lists, and casting sub-systems that make 5e casters distinct from eachother, just trimming a few that resulted in high at-will DPR.

 

[TwoSix]

Yes, I acknowledged that - caster or non-caster becomes the only real difference between characters. All casters are pretty much the same, all non-casters are pretty much the same.

So a 4th level CG high elf arcane archer fighter with the Actor feat, and a NE half-orc champion fighter with the Tough feat are pretty much equivalent? But if we subtract some extra fighting styles and give them Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master feat instead (with the same -5/+10 mechanism), we've added a whole host of distinctiveness?

That example does help me to understand why we have divergent views on my suggested houserules, so I do appreciate the candor.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

Yes, I acknowledged that - caster or non-caster becomes the only real difference between characters. All casters are pretty much the same, all non-casters are pretty much the same.

You'll excuse me if that sounds boring as hell.

 

[MoonSong]

Right. So, chess and go are boring games. Gotcha. We should let the millions of people who play them know that they're actually bored, no?

(Sorry for the snark, but the statement was a little out there.)

Actually, as far as I remember, chess is unbalanced. White has an advantage over Black that -while meaningless at low skill games- clearly shows up at high -grandmaster high- ability levels where every single move counts.

Speaking of that, I have a problem with chess. I'm kind of at the higher end of average skill, but I'm still average. So any actual serious player can trash the floor with me, but odds are any random person will grow frustrated playing with me. I've even tried to deliberately pay less attention to give my opponents a better chance, but turns out that boys feel like I'm cherry tapping them so they get frustrated even more quickly. So I've basically ran out of people to play with.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Interesting observation. The people demanding many more options to increase player choice, and always harping on lack of meaningful choice, are also the ones demanding every PC be balanced against every other PC in all situations and scenarios. Every PC has to be just as good in combat, and interaction, and exploration, and resolving out of combat challenges as every other PC. DPR has to be the same.

So is that really choice if the end result is exactly the same? I don’t think so. I think the only choice is what you’ve written down on your character sheet, but it doesn’t matter what you chose because you have the same chances as everyone else in all things. It doesn’t matter if you chose a fighter if they are balanced with the rogue and wizard to overcome out of combat challenges (fighters need out of combat stuff!) It doesn’t matter if you chose to play a rogue if you have the same staying power and survability in combat as the fighter (rogues need to do the same DPR as fighters!). We’ve all heard the arguments.

I think it’s a bit of cognitive dissonance. Demand more choice but also demand everything be balanced rendering that choice moot.

 

[Warpiglet]

I guess I am wondering how I could have played this game for decades without realizing how poor my taste is. I feel ashamed.

I spent a sizable portion of my youth playing AD&D which was really poorly balanced. And now? We rediscover our youthful adventures with AD&D and all we have to show for it is ostensibly poor taste, hours of fun, tales fondly recounted, high fives and some of the most fun we have ever had.

Now I know how mistaken we have all been and appreciate the insight. If we only make everything mathmateically identical, we will have fun the right way!

 

[Swarmkeeper]

If we only make everything mathmateically identical, we will have fun the right way!

Karma police
Arrest this man
He talks in maths
He buzzes like a stirge
He's like a detoothed otyugh

 

[Krachek]

D&D
Damage & Damage.