The Fourth Goblinoid

[Guang]

The modern trio of Goblins, Hobgoblins, and Bugbears is tough to break into. Each has a more-or-less clearly defined space in the imaginative space. Norkers, Snotlings, the blue psionic ones, etc....none of them can quite compete with the big three. I've looked at various creatures that could be goblinized (or re-goblinized) - Ogres, Gnolls, Orcs, and none of them extended the archetypal space of quick one, mighty one, strong one that I was looking for.

But now I think I have a really good candidate for the fourth goblinoid: Shaver's Mystery version of the Derro. (or Dero, as he spelled it). Apparently there was this whole hugely popular scientology-type thing going on in pulp sci-fi about these degenerate, hateful, sadistic creatures living underground that would kidnap people, use strange ancient technology to torture them, and eat them as if they were any other cut of meat. In short, a perfect fourth goblinoid, if you go by the original stories rather than the watered-down versions that made it into d&d, pathfinder, and the like.

Look at The Shaver Mystery section of the wikipedia page for Richard Sharpe Shaver and let me know what you think!

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[aco175]

The Wiki mentions the 1e derro having roots from these guys. I was first getting the impression of the morlocks from the Time Machine book, not to be undone by the 1960 movie. They all seem to be about the same.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Strange that you say orcs don't work. Before all this was codified (probably 3e, or maybe 2e given ranger's switching from battling 'giant type' enemies to selectable groups) goblins, hobgoblins, orcs and bugbears (and kobolds, but they were different then) were all kind of an unofficial family together. I wonder when there became enough conceptual space between orcs and goblinoids that orcs can't slot back into the family.

 

[Guang]

Strange that you say orcs don't work. Before all this was codified (probably 3e, or maybe 2e given ranger's switching from battling 'giant type' enemies to selectable groups) goblins, hobgoblins, orcs and bugbears (and kobolds, but they were different then) were all kind of an unofficial family together. I wonder when there became enough conceptual space between orcs and goblinoids that orcs can't slot back into the family.

Same way kobolds can't be easily slotted back into the family. They have each grown, conceptually, and diverged...

But for Orcs specifically: slotting them in seems redundant. They are big and strong, like the Bugbear. Also kind of dumb, like the Bugbear. Not stealthy, I guess, but the main difference seems to that they are less hairy, which doesn't seem like a good enough reason to welcome them back to the fold.

I would be delighted to be proven wrong if someone wanted to explain how different Orcs and Bugbears are.

 

[Guang]

The Wiki mentions the 1e derro having roots from these guys. I was first getting the impression of the morlocks from the Time Machine book, not to be undone by the 1960 movie. They all seem to be about the same.

View attachment 256231

So, different from the Shaver mystery weirdness that I was pointing to. I think that pic is from one of the Wellsian Time Machine movies.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Same way kobolds can't be easily slotted back into the family. They have each grown, conceptually, and diverged...

Oh, there I agree. They've been everything from another-goblin to pigmen to ethnic expies to nature warrior to whatever WoW and Warhammer dragged back in (in an inspiration loop) to whatever people see them as today.

But for Orcs specifically: slotting them in seems redundant. They are big and strong, like the Bugbear. Also kind of dumb, like the Bugbear. Not stealthy, I guess, but the main difference seems to that they are less hairy, which doesn't seem like a good enough reason to welcome them back to the fold.

I would be delighted to be proven wrong if someone wanted to explain how different Orcs and Bugbears are.

Here I get confused. Isn't this the opposite argument? They drifted to far away to be in the group, but then can't be slotted back in because they are too similar? I mean, yes, they often are mechanically and thematically similar. At start kobolds, goblins, orcs, and hobgoblins were just the 1/2, 1D-1, 1, and 1D+1 HD versions of effectively the same* thing**. Orcs started with a little more tribal qualities and could align with neutral forces, but generally they all were pretty much just non-human enemies that used weapons. In the subsequent decades each has had a little spotlight, each got a turn to be the sneaky ones. But in the end, no, orcs and bugbears were mostly differentiated by the bugbears having more HD, and the occasional depiction as being ambushers.
*I guess kobolds 1 worse and hobgoblins 1 better AC also distinguishes
**Bugbears coming out in Supplement I and being 3+1 HD and getting 2-8 damage instead of 1-6 gives them a clear difference, but one created by the change in how the game worked midway through.

 

[Celebrim]

The modern trio of Goblins, Hobgoblins, and Bugbears is tough to break into. Each has a more-or-less clearly defined space in the imaginative space. Norkers, Snotlings, the blue psionic ones, etc....none of them can quite compete with the big three. I've looked at various creatures that could be goblinized (or re-goblinized) - Ogres, Gnolls, Orcs, and none of them extended the archetypal space of quick one, mighty one, strong one that I was looking for.

The rest of the family in my game world is Ogres, Great Goblins, and Barghest. Ogres are bred by mingling giant blood with goblin blood with the expressed purpose of creating living war machines. Great Goblins are the rulers of goblinkind, bred to be kings, bigger and more cunning even than Bugbears. They are obviously inspired by the term in Tolkien and by the portrayal of the Great Goblin as physically very different from the other goblins in the Rankin-Bass cartoon version. And Barghests are emissaries from the Goblin gods, mighty spirits of past goblin warriors returned to fulfill special purposes on behalf of the goblin deities (this fully replaces the traditional lore developed around them). Regular goblins are the peasant caste. Hobgoblins are the warrior caste. Bugbears are the overseer class meant to keep the others in line. Of course, there is in practice considerable jostling for position and rank.

Orcs don't actually exist in my game world. I found having them redundant and decided that either goblins or orcs would have to go. The write up on the Goblin gods suggested to me a race that had deliberately been selectively bred into castes and the lore being built in D&D on the Goblins was something I like more than the D&D orc lore, so it was orcs that went away.

 

[Tonguez]

Once upon a time Ogres were giant goblinoids, no reason not to push them back in

then theres the psionic Blues and the shrieking Vril, not to mention the fiendish Barghest (who make great goblin leaders)

the Dero are a bit meh, though they do remind me of Doctor Who’s Silurians (and of course the Morlocks as above).

and besides DnD has already established that Derro are degenirate dwarfs

 

[Willie the Duck]

and besides DnD has already established that Derro are degenirate dwarfs

Depending on how much you want to change the world, it could be that dwarves and goblins (maybe up through ogres and giants, to add Celebrim's idea) are interbreeding species within a genus or the like, with a continuum of intermediaries that each see as degenerate versions of themselves, but in reality are just part of a continuum.

 

[Celebrim]

Depending on how much you want to change the world, it could be that dwarves and goblins (maybe up through ogres and giants, to add Celebrim's idea) are interbreeding species within a genus or the like, with a continuum of intermediaries that each see as degenerate versions of themselves, but in reality are just part of a continuum.

Dwarves and goblins the same race! Never!

But I will let you in on some of my deep secret campaign lore, something no PC has ever figured out.

Spoiler

Bits of lore that do often come out in play is that Goblins are often no longer considered "free people" by the other free races and are instead treated as "servitors" which effectively means that they are non-people and free to kill. The reason some philosophers and cultures think that is that the histories record that in the early years after the Godswar, when the First Empire - the elvish Empire of Leaves - was spreading over the earth, the goblins disappeared from the surface of the Earth and did not trouble the other Free Peoples and were not seen often abroad. Then after the fall of the First Empire, the goblins reemerged from their underground lairs, and they were changed becoming fanged and horned, warriors of bone and hard sinew, terrible in countenance, and devouring the flesh of the other free people.

It's also recorded in the history of the elves that when the elves and the goblins first met, they danced together under the moonlight and were happy.

It's also something that comes up in the lore that goblins themselves think they are ugly and despise their own appearance.

What no PC hearing this has ever really thought to ask or gotten curious about is "If goblins were changed, what were they changed from?"

And the answer to that is that goblins used to be gnomes. Gnomes don't exist in my world, but they are what goblins once were. And it's possible, even probable, that there are Deep Gnomes hiding far from the eyes of the free people, beneath the great kingdoms of Goblin-kind, far far underground - rebels against their creator who fled the terror of Maglubiyet's great program and so retain their original form. It's likewise possible that a sufficiently heroic goblin could, if they wished, revert to their original form and become anew the progenitor of gnomes in the world.