D&D (2024) The future of edition changes and revisions

[Ruin Explorer]

That's the part I don't think was an accident. They heard 'I want a race it's okay to murder just like back in the day', so they used the traditional ways you make a race of people 'okay' to murder.

It's not like they weren't aware of the 40 year argument over this and just bumbled into it like Laurel and Hardy into a mummy. They saw what certain other games that appealed to their then intended target treated this, figured they weren't enough in the limelight to get much blowback and said 'yes. I want that.'.

Then pop culture said 'Hey, remember D&D? That's nostalgic and profitable. Let's all look in that direction now!' and they got caught putting terrible things in their books.

Yeah sorry I was enjoying my lame LotR joke a little too much there, but yes fundamentally I agree this wasn't Laurel bumping into a Mummy, there was real intentionality behind making a race you could be excused for killing mindlessly (and which wasn't a bioroid/robot, demon, non-sentient or the like). And yeah then it suddenly wasn't a good look.

 

[Echohawk]

They changed all three core goblinoid races, not just the goblin (the bugbear getting the most notable mechanical change). So the analysis should consider those changes as well. Taken as a whole, it's a little more significant

If we're including other goblinoids in the comparison, then we would also need to look at the changes to hobgoblins and bugbears between/within other editions. I haven't checked, but I strongly suspect that both of those changed more than vanilla goblins did. (I'm still a bit surprised by how consistent the goblin has remained compared to... well, most monsters really.)

Those previous-edition changes you found are fairly mild, and mainly a matter of lore than mechanics. None quite compare to making goblins fey (both in lore and mechanics) when they were previously just Material Plane humanoids.

I agree that the sudden change to fey seems like a more radical change than any one of the things on my list. It also comes a little out of left field to me. During a quick perusal, I didn't find any indications or hints in previous lore that goblins might be fey. I don't particularly mind the new fey origin, but it feels sudden.

You also neglected to recognize that this is the first time we've had such a fundamental change to a core monster in the middle of the same edition

Looking at a full list of changes in Monsters of the Multiverse, and following @Leatherhead 's excellent Let's Read thread. I also agree that the only (somewhat) comparable mid-edition changes to monsters would be from 3.0 to 3.5. Third edition relied heavily on crunchy numbers in monster stat blocks, so 3.0->3.5 had many more numbers change. In terms of lore though, early 5e to current 5e now seems to be comparable to 3.0->3.5—small changes all over the place, and a few creatures where, if you look closely, there are much more significant updates.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Yeah, that's it right there. I don't care for this new pressure at all, and it's making me inclined to dig in my heels.

Just as an aside, and hope this doesn't read as an attack, because it was hard for me to come to personally, and took me a while, just because someone or society is pressuring you, does not mean digging your heels in or being difficult is inherently right, honest, smart, decent, admirable or anything like that. It feels like maybe it should be, but it isn't. It's certainly as bad to instinctually dig your heels in as it is to mindlessly capitulate to pressure. You've got to find a way to look at how things might be without the pressure, and see if things make sense.

Once I started doing that it became obvious sometimes I actually see the point, and sometimes, you don't. I think with this issue, whilst the pressure may cause one to want to be contrarian, a cold, sober analysis of things will suggest that's not the best approach.

I guess what I'm saying is, it's not a binary. It's not resist or agree mindlessly. You find your footing, think about it for yourself. Even if you still feel like you disagree, it's likely your disagreement will be more specific/precise.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Just as an aside, and hope this doesn't read as an attack, because it was hard for me to come to personally, and took me a while, just because someone or society is pressuring you, does not mean digging your heels in or being difficult is inherently right, honest, smart, decent, admirable or anything like that. It feels like maybe it should be, but it isn't. It's certainly as bad to instinctually dig your heels in as it is to mindlessly capitulate to pressure. You've got to find a way to look at how things might be without the pressure, and see if things make sense.

Once I started doing that it became obvious sometimes I actually see the point, and sometimes, you don't. I think with this issue, whilst the pressure may cause one to want to be contrarian, a cold, sober analysis of things will suggest that's not the best approach.

I guess what I'm saying is, it's not a binary. It's not resist or agree mindlessly. You find your footing, think about it for yourself. Even if you still feel like you disagree, it's likely your disagreement will be more specific/precise.

Well, I'm not entirely made of stone. Before Level Up rendered the question moot in my favor, I was coming around to the idea of Tasha's race changes, and most of the other stuff in there seems fine too. I'm fine with new options as long as they don't (gleefully it seems sometimes) replace the old.

 

[occam]

I agree that the sudden change to fey seems like a more radical change than any one of the things on my list. It also comes a little out of left field to me. During a quick perusal, I didn't find any indications or hints in previous lore that goblins might be fey. I don't particularly mind the new fey origin, but it feels sudden.

There was a hint of it in 4e; goblins had a notable Feywild presence, so they were already thinking along those lines.

 

[Micah Sweet]

There was a hint of it in 4e; goblins had a notable Feywild presence, so they were already thinking along those lines.

Fortunately for me, 4e was blissfully easy to ignore once I was done with it; my instinct to compartmentalize stuff I don't like worked out great there.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Goblinoids are Fay now? Nah.

Makes sense Goblinoids were Fey related in actual myth. And most Goblinoids are Fey descended not actual fey. What with the whole conquest by their god thing.

 

[Parmandur]

If we're including other goblinoids in the comparison, then we would also need to look at the changes to hobgoblins and bugbears between/within other editions. I haven't checked, but I strongly suspect that both of those changed more than vanilla goblins did. (I'm still a bit surprised by how consistent the goblin has remained compared to... well, most monsters really.)

I agree that the sudden change to fey seems like a more radical change than any one of the things on my list. It also comes a little out of left field to me. During a quick perusal, I didn't find any indications or hints in previous lore that goblins might be fey. I don't particularly mind the new fey origin, but it feels sudden.

Looking at a full list of changes in Monsters of the Multiverse, and following @Leatherhead 's excellent Let's Read thread. I also agree that the only (somewhat) comparable mid-edition changes to monsters would be from 3.0 to 3.5. Third edition relied heavily on crunchy numbers in monster stat blocks, so 3.0->3.5 had many more numbers change. In terms of lore though, early 5e to current 5e now seems to be comparable to 3.0->3.5—small changes all over the place, and a few creatures where, if you look closely, there are much more significant updates.

The two major factors in Gonlons being Fey:

1.) David Bowie and other pop culture depictions if Goblins, not to mention the folk culture origins

2.) The continuing cross-fertilization of Magic the Gathering IP with D&D worlds. Magic Goblins are very, very Fey.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Actually...both. Goblinoids on the Material Plane ate Humanoids with Fey Ancestry now, but some of the Goblinoid monster stat blocks are now Fey (Nilbog, etc), with text explaining that some Goblinoids are still in the Feywild.

Nilbogs being a fey creature existing to sow havoc makes a lot more sense to me than some random reality warping disease called nilbogism.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Nilbogs being a fey creature existing to sow havoc makes a lot more sense to me than some random reality warping disease called nilbogism.

Well, I'm glad WotC has managed to capture the zeitgeist of the majority of ENworld posters.