D&D 5E (2024) The Great Wizard Extinction.

[Zardnaar]

As I said, not my main point. That save compares to the charisma save of the sorcerer. Same main attribute. Same saving throw category (weak).
I really don't know why you still try to compare int saving throw with con saving throw.

Again. That is building a straw man.

???

Straw man...

Again straw man.

Wizards are better at wisdom saves. Probably 1 point lower than sorcerer's con saves.

No. I am not.

The good con save for sorcerer will come up way more often tha wisdom for wizards.

Con is a secondary stat vs tertiary at best for Wizards.

The prime attribute for wizards and their save rarely comes up.

Charisma saves marginally more common and very important in social pillar.

Clerics and druids also get wisdom saves and prime attribute. Wisdom saves are number 1 or two to be good at.

Wizards functionally don't have good saves comparatively. Intelligence is the worst save to be proficient at.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The good con save for sorcerer will come up way more often tha wisdom for wizards.

Maybe. But if a wis save comes up, it gets very dangerous (weren't you suggesting to us hold person or command?)

Con is a secondary stat vs tertiary at best for Wizards.

Difference is one point usually. A wizard probably has 14 con too. So that is not that bad against DC10.

The prime attribute for wizards and their save rarely comes up .Charisma saves marginally more common

Difference is neglegible.

and very important in social pillar.

The wizard is way mkre useful in exploration. And since everyone else is competing for cha anyway, why not excel in something different?

Clerics and druids also get wisdom saves and prime attribute.

Maybe you want to be a arcane spellcaster. But both can get respectable arcana checks if they accept lower AC.

Wisdom saves are number 1 or two to be good at.

Yes. They are great at that. Never denied that.

Wizards functionally don't have good saves comparatively.

Wizards saves are not that great. But not terrible either.

Intelligence is the worst save to be proficient at.

Same as cha and str saves (which were practically nullified except for standard grapples). And if they come up, they are terrible to fail.

 

[ECMO3]

Wizards functionally don't have good saves comparatively. Intelligence is the worst save to be proficient at.

I think Wizards are middle of the pack in saves.

I think Wizard saves are better than Sorcerers, Rangers, Monks (early levels), Fighters (early levels), Rogues (early levels), Bards.

Worse than Paladins, Clerics, Fighters (high levels), Monks (high level), Rogues (high level) and Druids.

Obviously subclass and build choices can effect that. My rationale for this is saves ranked:

1. Wisdom
2. Dexterity
3. Constitution
big gap
4. Strength
5. Charisma
6. Intelligence

 

[Zardnaar]

I think Wizards are middle of the pack in saves.

I think Wizard saves are better than Sorcerers, Rangers, Monks (early levels), Fighters (early levels), Rogues (early levels), Bards.

Worse than Paladins, Clerics, Fighters (high levels), Monks (high level), Rogues (high level) and Druids.

Obviously subclass and build choices can effect that. My rationale for this is saves ranked:

1. Wisdom
2. Dexterity
3. Constitution
big gap
4. Strength
5. Charisma
6. Intelligence

More or less same order but swap dexterity s d con around. Especially con on a spellcaster.

 

[Mistwell]

My wizards great!! Dips a ranger level lol.

Yes, not sure why that is controversial or makes some point you think it makes? Sorcerers very often also dip a Paladin level for armor. Since when is a full-caster armor-dip an unknown thing to you? Almost all full casters have the identical issue with AC.

 

[Scribe]

Yes, not sure why that is controversial or makes some point you think it makes? Sorcerers very often also dip a Paladin level for armor. Since when is a full-caster armor-dip an unknown thing to you? Almost all full casters have the identical issue with AC.

Its offensive that Wizards or Sorcerers can cast and wear armor anyway, or mix Spell Slots between Arcane and Divine!