D&D 5E (2024) The Great Wizard Extinction.

[Zardnaar]

As I said, not my main point. That save compares to the charisma save of the sorcerer. Same main attribute. Same saving throw category (weak).
I really don't know why you still try to compare int saving throw with con saving throw.

Again. That is building a straw man.

???

Straw man...

Again straw man.

Wizards are better at wisdom saves. Probably 1 point lower than sorcerer's con saves.

No. I am not.

The good con save for sorcerer will come up way more often tha wisdom for wizards.

Con is a secondary stat vs tertiary at best for Wizards.

The prime attribute for wizards and their save rarely comes up.

Charisma saves marginally more common and very important in social pillar.

Clerics and druids also get wisdom saves and prime attribute. Wisdom saves are number 1 or two to be good at.

Wizards functionally don't have good saves comparatively. Intelligence is the worst save to be proficient at.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The good con save for sorcerer will come up way more often tha wisdom for wizards.

Maybe. But if a wis save comes up, it gets very dangerous (weren't you suggesting to us hold person or command?)

Con is a secondary stat vs tertiary at best for Wizards.

Difference is one point usually. A wizard probably has 14 con too. So that is not that bad against DC10.

The prime attribute for wizards and their save rarely comes up .Charisma saves marginally more common

Difference is neglegible.

and very important in social pillar.

The wizard is way mkre useful in exploration. And since everyone else is competing for cha anyway, why not excel in something different?

Clerics and druids also get wisdom saves and prime attribute.

Maybe you want to be a arcane spellcaster. But both can get respectable arcana checks if they accept lower AC.

Wisdom saves are number 1 or two to be good at.

Yes. They are great at that. Never denied that.

Wizards functionally don't have good saves comparatively.

Wizards saves are not that great. But not terrible either.

Intelligence is the worst save to be proficient at.

Same as cha and str saves (which were practically nullified except for standard grapples). And if they come up, they are terrible to fail.

 

[ECMO3]

Wizards functionally don't have good saves comparatively. Intelligence is the worst save to be proficient at.

I think Wizards are middle of the pack in saves.

I think Wizard saves are better than Sorcerers, Rangers, Monks (early levels), Fighters (early levels), Rogues (early levels), Bards.

Worse than Paladins, Clerics, Fighters (high levels), Monks (high level), Rogues (high level) and Druids.

Obviously subclass and build choices can effect that. My rationale for this is saves ranked:

1. Wisdom
2. Dexterity
3. Constitution
big gap
4. Strength
5. Charisma
6. Intelligence

 

[Zardnaar]

I think Wizards are middle of the pack in saves.

I think Wizard saves are better than Sorcerers, Rangers, Monks (early levels), Fighters (early levels), Rogues (early levels), Bards.

Worse than Paladins, Clerics, Fighters (high levels), Monks (high level), Rogues (high level) and Druids.

Obviously subclass and build choices can effect that. My rationale for this is saves ranked:

1. Wisdom
2. Dexterity
3. Constitution
big gap
4. Strength
5. Charisma
6. Intelligence

More or less same order but swap dexterity s d con around. Especially con on a spellcaster.

 

[Mistwell]

My wizards great!! Dips a ranger level lol.

Yes, not sure why that is controversial or makes some point you think it makes? Sorcerers very often also dip a Paladin level for armor. Since when is a full-caster armor-dip an unknown thing to you? Almost all full casters have the identical issue with AC.

 

[Scribe]

Yes, not sure why that is controversial or makes some point you think it makes? Sorcerers very often also dip a Paladin level for armor. Since when is a full-caster armor-dip an unknown thing to you? Almost all full casters have the identical issue with AC.

Its offensive that Wizards or Sorcerers can cast and wear armor anyway, or mix Spell Slots between Arcane and Divine!

 

[James Gasik]

It would be cool if Wizards, due to their intense study and knowledge of magic, had some kind of advantage to Int, Cha and Wis saves vs spells?

In my last session, the players fought an NPC Archmage. They weren't pleased to find that not only did she have Magic Resistance, but was also resistant to spell damage! "How come she gets that?"

"Well, she's an Archmage."

"Funny, I don't see an option for that in the Wizard class."

But it really does sound like something a Wizard should be able to get.

 

[James Gasik]

n=1

Keep in mind that during the LONG AD&D2e era the core option was Wizard. And a LOT of us came into that from Basic D&D and/or HeroQuest (with also Wizard). Then came D&D 3e, with the Sorcerer added as a core class, book mage vs. natural mage. Suddenly a lot of folks started playing Sorcerer, it was new, after the initial 'newness' wore off, people just used it as just another non-divine spellcaster option. And while some might look at the power level of the different classes and will choose the most powerful one, most don't.

Many of us skipped 4e, and with 5e adding in the Warlock, many went again for the 'newness'. I wasn't one of those a decade ago though. But with our last campaign (on pause), I needed a non-divine spellcaster, something that was easy to play in and out of the session. Warlock was the one with the least amount of moving parts among the three, not because it's more powerful, not because it's new (to me), not because it's cool (although I made it cool), it was because I had already too many plates spinning and this was the non-divine spellcaster which required the least amount of brainpower to operate... A good choice we found out later, as for a LONG while I was playing this character and also making all the maps/encounters ad-hoc in our Foundry VTT game was started up a couple of sessions after we started playing. Not having too many options is bliss when you're also trying to draw the next chamber and managing the monsters for the DM...

We rotate DMing in our group, and now it's my turn, we started a new party (with the previous campaign on-hold for the next DM). One of the players is playing a Wizard. Why? Because they tend to play casters, Cleric, Bard, etc. in this case a Wizard. In our group, we haven't played an Artificer yet (I think), and a Druid is bloody rare for us. It really depends on what kinda concept we have in our heads at a particular time, and we try to compliment each other's characters (role). How that translates completely depends on your group.

Just a minor quibble. The Warlock was created in 3.5, in Complete Arcane.

 

[Stalker0]

You get that spell level 9. Around 10% of games go tgat high according to WotC.

Also I'm not disputing Wizards grow into a great class. Its how long they take to get there.

Ah my apologies the way I wrote that I can see the confusion.

I was talking about the 5th level wizard class ability Memorize spell....so not high level.

 

[Stalker0]

In my last session, the players fought an NPC Archmage. They weren't pleased to find that not only did she have Magic Resistance, but was also resistant to spell damage! "How come she gets that?"

"Well, she's an Archmage."

"Funny, I don't see an option for that in the Wizard class."

But it really does sound like something a Wizard should be able to get.

Lvl 14th Abjurer, there you go