D&D 5E (2024) The Great Wizard Extinction.

[Zardnaar]

Yes. Along with a lot of spells that ask for an int save.

Theres sod all spells requiring an intelligence saves.

Around 9 atm.

Functionally the wizard has no excellent saves. Intelligence saves are so rare you may never make one and wisdom is a tertiary stat at best

 

[Zardnaar]

I am playing a low level wizard right now. Took a single level dip in Ranger for armor, which did not reduce my spell slot progression (just spell level progression). Uses true strike with a melee or ranged weapon for decent damage and a weapon mastery one each (from Ranger). Mirror image and Shield, along with half plate and a shield, make him nearly unhittable at these levels. Bonus action Minor Image with both visual and sound gives him cover/concealment every round too. Web is great at these levels for control.

My wizards great!! Dips a ranger level lol.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Theres sod all spells requiring an intelligence saves.

Please try to spell check your sentences... I failed my jnt check here.

Around 9 atm.

The total number does not really matter. If the one spell or ability is powerful enough, everyone might take it.
The few spells that target int are debilitating.
Mind sliver, the cantrip hurts a lot (it reduces further saves). Phantasmal force hurts. Mind flayers hurt.

Functionally the wizard has no excellent saves. Intelligence saves are so rare you may never make one and wisdom is a tertiary stat at best

But the sorcerer has no wisdom save proficiency or reason to bump wis at all...

A wizard can afford a 12 im wisdom without hazzle.
Dump str and cha.

 

[Zardnaar]

Please try to spell check your sentences... I failed my jnt check here.

The total number does not really matter. If the one spell or ability is powerful enough, everyone might take it.
The few spells that target int are debilitating.
Mind sliver, the cantrip hurts a lot (it reduces further saves). Phantasmal force hurts. Mind flayers hurt.

But the sorcerer has no wisdom save proficiency or reason to bump wis at all...

A wizard can afford a 12 im wisdom without hazzle.
Dump str and cha.

Sorcerers get constitution saves. One of the best saves in the game for spell casters.

People don't generally cast intelligence saves on each other. They're rare in the monster manual as well with mind players being an obvious one.

Theres 500 monsters in the MM.

So if your campaign usnt using mind flayers the odds of them having to make an intelligence saves drop drastically.

Yes I have looked into what saves to use, target snd things like elemental resistances.

You want to use spells that target intelligence saves imho. My players generally use wisdom saves mindsliver and synaptic static being exceptions.

Behind DM screen its an obvious weakness on most monsters.

 

[Bae'zel]

It would be cool if Wizards, due to their intense study and knowledge of magic, had some kind of advantage to Int, Cha and Wis saves vs spells?

 

[Stalker0]

I think Wizards are completely fine as a class. But I also fully respect if your focus is on combat and your games don't do a lot of downtime and exploration and other pillars that the wizard loses luster compared to other spellcasters.

Wizard don't bring the raw flavor and power of some other spellcasters, but nobody does downtime like a wizard.

Alright guys you have a third days of downtime, what would you like to do?

Wizard: I would like to cast Contact Other Plane as many times as possible. I will cast it while standing next to our paladin so that's a +14 to the saving throw and I'm a gnome so I have advantage (so 1 in 400 I fail). Lets say I cast it 3 times an hour, as I'll need to move around when my paladin buddy moves, and just to take breaks. So that's 144 casts x 5 = 720 questions about anything and everything.

(and if you think this is a crazy outlier scenario....this is exactly what the Wizard in my game did. I did limit their questions further for santity, but effectively we had a couple hour session just me and them where it was a full Q and A, and they just asked me a myriad of questions).



Yeah Wizards + downtime = insane power

 

[Zardnaar]

I think Wizards are completely fine as a class. But I also fully respect if your focus is on combat and your games don't do a lot of downtime and exploration and other pillars that the wizard loses luster compared to other spellcasters.

Wizard don't bring the raw flavor and power of some other spellcasters, but nobody does downtime like a wizard.

Alright guys you have a third days of downtime, what would you like to do?

Wizard: I would like to cast Contact Other Plane as many times as possible. I will cast it while standing next to our paladin so that's a +14 to the saving throw and I'm a gnome so I have advantage (so 1 in 400 I fail). Lets say I cast it 3 times an hour, as I'll need to move around when my paladin buddy moves, and just to take breaks. So that's 144 casts x 5 = 720 questions about anything and everything.

(and if you think this is a crazy outlier scenario....this is exactly what the Wizard in my game did. I did limit their questions further for santity, but effectively we had a couple hour session just me and them where it was a full Q and A, and they just asked me a myriad of questions).



Yeah Wizards + downtime = insane power

Wel its also social. Charisma classes are better.

Exploration maybe but Druids exist.

 

[Mort]

I think the fact that there is such a lively debate going on means WoTC finally got it mostly right!

Well, IMO, they got it right in 4e too - but that's a completely different conversation.

The wizard still reigns supreme in versatility - and shines when that's important - at any level, not just high levels.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Sorcerers get constitution saves. One of the best saves in the game for spell casters.

Yes. As I said. If you are targeted by something that incapacitates you, con does not help.

People don't generally cast intelligence saves on each other. They're rare in the monster manual as well with mind players being an obvious one.

Yeah. There are enemy spellcasters though.

Theres 500 monsters in the MM.

Does not matter. The question is how frequent monsters appear. An underdark campaign might have a significant higher frequency of mind flayers.

The line of argumentation is used often, but totally not based on reality. There are a lot of monsters that are very rarely encountered. And monsters that are more frequent. You will face a lot more humanoids than dragons or tarrasques etc.

So if your campaign usnt using mind flayers the odds of them having to make an intelligence saves drop drastically.

Yes. But the odds of having to make one increase drastically once you are in such a campaign.

Yes I have looked into what saves to use, target snd things like elemental resistances.

?

You want to use spells that target intelligence saves imho. My players generally use wisdom saves mindsliver and synaptic static being exceptions.

Actually I mainly said, the wizard is way better at wisdom saves than sorcerers.
They add prof bonus to it.

Behind DM screen its an obvious weakness on most monsters.

?

 

[Stalker0]

Yes. As I said. If you are targeted by something that incapacitates you, con does not help.

Yeah. There are enemy spellcasters though.

Does not matter. The question is how frequent monsters appear. An underdark campaign might have a significant higher frequency of mind flayers.

The line of argumentation is used often, but totally not based on reality. There are a lot of monsters that are very rarely encountered. And monsters that are more frequent. You will face a lot more humanoids than dragons or tarrasques etc.

Yes. But the odds of having to make one increase drastically once you are in such a campaign.

?

Actually I mainly said, the wizard is way better at wisdom saves than sorcerers.
They add prof bonus to it.

?

You are correct that the frequency saves does depend on the setting and what monsters are used. But there are two caveats there:

1) Since we are all talking in generals, there are saves that are more common than others. I think its a very reasonable statement to say characters will make Con/Dex/Wis saves more often than Str/Int/Cha saves the majority of the time in the majority of games.

2) Con saves are going to be quite frequent for any caster just because of concentration spells. So boosts to con saves is going to be very useful to a caster irregardless of the monsters they fight