D&D 5E The Greatest Thing about 5e

dave2008

Legend
PF2 bring this close to perfection. Want to move 3 times? Sure! Want to Move, Jump and Attack! Go for it! Spell and Sword? Why not? 3 attacks? Of course you can.
The problem I have is that you can't, conceptually, take another action while moving (unless I missed that in rules - it has been a few years) and that and it doesn't account for reactions. Personally I would go with 6 actions and include reactions and give some free movement. So you have a set amount for free movement, but then you can add on top it if you spend an action. Also, a reaction would cost an action too.
 

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HaroldTheHobbit

Adventurer
Curious, what do you think is the game style WotC is selling? That is not something I even think about so it stood out to me.

IDK, have you checked out the UA reddit or DMs Guild? Homebrewing seems alive and well to me. I feel like the resources outside of "official" WotC/TSR content are greater than ever.
First, yes, available complementary material - be it player input from foras or 3PP - is probably greater than ever. That is not the same as having a majority of the player base creating their own campaigns and adventures.

As to the game style Wiz are selling, it's a D&D with the edges filed off, more modern Disney fairytale than Brothers Grimm, greater focus on nonviolent solutions, wider and looser borders for identity expression, etc etc. In my very personal opinion, when 5e came out it focused on older players returning, now it focus on new and young customers who are raised in a very different media and storytelling landscape.

For the most part that is a good thing, as it keeps the hobby expanding and raising new generations of gamers, even if us oldtimers doesn't always adapt to the changes with grace. But my original point in this thread was that if Wiz make the game too bland and "easy" - such as uninteresting monsters/opponent - it may not have enough room to adapt and expand when the newer players look for a deeper experience.

But I'm really not interested in having a multipage debate here. New players have good roleplaying fun, and I have enough material to play in a slightly older style until I dirtnap. So all is well :)
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
PF2 bring this close to perfection. Want to move 3 times? Sure! Want to Move, Jump and Attack! Go for it! Spell and Sword? Why not? 3 attacks? Of course you can.
I mean… You can but all of those are pretty suboptimal lines of play since most class feats are built around using multiple actions to do more than you’d be able to do with the same number of individual actions.

Don’t get me wrong, I think PF2’s action economy is brilliant. But I do wish that taking an action before you’ve moved your full speed didn’t cause you to lose any remaining movement. If I have 20 foot speed, I should be able to move 10 feet, attack, and move 10 more feet without having to use a third action.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
There's lots of things about 5e I like, but bounded accuracy is the thing that has made 5e ruin a lot of other games for me that lack it.
I find that people often either have this reaction, or they consider it the single worst part of 5e. Personally, I’m in the same camp as you, but I find it interesting how polarizing it is. I’m a little surprised that 5e stuck with it, given that the goal was to appeal as broadly as possible.
 

dave2008

Legend
I mean… You can but all of those are pretty suboptimal lines of play since most class feats are built around using multiple actions to do more than you’d be able to do with the same number of individual actions.

Don’t get me wrong, I think PF2’s action economy is brilliant. But I do wish that taking an action before you’ve moved your full speed didn’t cause you to lose any remaining movement. If I have 20 foot speed, I should be able to move 10 feet, attack, and move 10 more feet without having to use a third action.
Yes, that would solve my issue with it I think.
 

payn

Legend
I find that people often either have this reaction, or they consider it the single worst part of 5e. Personally, I’m in the same camp as you, but I find it interesting how polarizing it is. I’m a little surprised that 5e stuck with it, given that the goal was to appeal as broadly as possible.
During NEXT I think a lot of folks struggled to understand BA. They might not have exactly had the right way to complain about it to WOTC at the time (for those who dislike it which I dont think are many outside of forums). BA is great for casual players which gives the game wide appeal.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
During NEXT I think a lot of folks struggled to understand BA. They might not have exactly had the right way to complain about it to WOTC at the time (for those who dislike it which I dont think are many outside of forums). BA is great for casual players which gives the game wide appeal.
That claim about limiting it to forums might actually be true on the extreme technicality of "doesn't like bounded accuracy", but that does not at all say that it's true once you start looking at how bounded accuracy impacts things mechanically and what people think about it outside of forums.

At no point in the phb monster manual & dungeon master guide do the words bounded accuracy find themselves on a page in that order describing the design or concept. The proper way to cover it should have been in a "behind the curtain" type sidebar that explains it to the gm and how to leverage/tinker with. Such a section should have included discussion of how it works & things to consider when doing so but 5e does not have that kind of gm facing low level nuts & bolts discussion intended to empower the gm wanting to understand and modify things to fit their desired game.

Were that not the case though you would see a lot more dislike of BA specifically. Bounded accuracy lies at the root cause of a lot of 5e's self infected design problems like monsters that feel like giant bags of hitpoints & more. Start talking about those problems outside of internet forums and you see more voices saying "yea that bugs me".
 
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payn

Legend
That claim about limiting it to forums may be ght actually be true on the extreme technicality or "doesn't like bounded accuracy", but that does not at all say that it's true once you start looking at how bounded accuracy impacts things mechanically and what people think about it outside of forums.

At no point in the phb monster manual & dungeon master guide do the words bounded accuracy find themselves on a page in that order describing the design or concept. The proper way to cover it should have been in a "behind the curtain" type sidebar that explains it to the gm and how to leverage/tinker with. Such a section should have included discussion of how it works & things to consider when doing so but 5e does not have that kind of gm facing low level nuts & bolts discussion intended to empower the gm wanting to understand and modify things to fit their desired game.

Were that not the case though you would see a lot more dislike of BA specifically. Bounded accuracy lies at the root cause of a lot of 5e's self infected design problems like monsters that feel like giant bags of hitpoints & more. Start talking about those problems outside of internet forums and you see more voices saying "yea that bugs me".
I guess that's going to vary greatly. I have never heard anyone talk about BA at all outside the forums.
 



darjr

I crit!
Seriously, why are players so afraid of Opportunity Attacks?
I wonder too. Some are not. Also it’s a cascade. If you have that one player that is willing to move and take OPs it frees up the other reluctant players.

Plus if you have monsters with reactions I use em up and make sure the players know the consequences.

Also, a lot of players love putting the reaction smack down.

Move those monsters.
 
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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
You are giving monsters bonus damage for actions you probably don't need to take, why wouldn't you want to avoid them?
Of course you want to avoid them, but sometimes it’s worth risking one. Spending your action to prevent a monster from attacking you is generally not as good as spending your action to attack a monster, especially if you have Extra Attack.
 

well, not quite - things are still fairly stop and start due to opportunity attacks if you don't have a way to disengage as a bonus action (or just not an action). a lot more fluid and intuitive then other systems though.
i'm currently in a pf2 campaign though we haven't gotten far enough to have combat - i'm wondering how opportunity attacks being limited to certain classes will end up changing combat.
Movement is much more tactical - as in there are lot of tactical reasons to move, such as getting into flanking position or making an enemy waste an action to come attack you. Fewer opportunity attacks (and no full-round actions) make these sound ideas and the penalties for attacking more than once mean moving isn't as big a cost.

But I'd still say 5e is more fluid, but not by much. (Or I could have a skewed experience)
 

Of course you want to avoid them, but sometimes it’s worth risking one. Spending your action to prevent a monster from attacking you is generally not as good as spending your action to attack a monster, especially if you have Extra Attack.
Except (at least in 5e) that's not what happens - unless they need to dash to catch u to you they'll just move up an attack. Kiting would just be giving them a free attack every round.

in 3e you lose all you extra attacks to take away their extra attacks... since pc's usually hit harder than on-level monsters, this is a loss for you. (Unless you're built around charge attacks - then you want to move often)

But yeah high AC characters shouldn't care about risking one if there's a actual reason to move.
 

Yeah WOTC has long had a bad history of giving high level casters huge power, but then trying to make monsters that just negate it...because otherwise you have boring fights.

Probably the best monster design I have seen against that is your classic Final Fantasy "multiple forms" boss monster. Sure player A casts X spell, totally owns the boss.....and then he comes back in form 2, everything reset and laughs "so what do you have now?" That I think goes well with 5e's very limited high level slots. It lets a caster go full fury, yet keeps the BBEG as a credible threat. It also ensures alpha strikes never end a fight prematurely.
Phase changes should be a staple for any solo encounter.
 

darjr

I crit!
Look, going into a fight with monsters is giving them a chance to damage your PC and possibly kill your PC. So now y’all dire concerned over OPs?

But my point was about moving monsters, not PCs. I’m OK if the PCs decide not to move.
 



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