D&D General The Gygaxian Origins of Drow and Some Thought on their Depiction As Villians

[TheCosmicKid]

I think you may be confusing definitions a small bit.

A Matriarchy is not (definitionally) a society where women are considered superior to men. It is a society where women are the ones holding the reigns of power. The rulers are women, the major merchants are women, ect. You never once have to say "women are superior to men", you never once have to have a woman treat a man badly.

You just need a society run by women.

Let's assume for the sake of argument you're right. We're not just talking about any matriarchy, we're talking about "the most matriarchal society in D&D". Of the spectrum of matriarchies, these people are at the extreme end. Even if not all matriarchies consider women superior to men, this presumably is the one that does.

I don't agree. You've made this claim before, but it's wholly unconvincing to me, because D&D literally only ever specifies when something is a matriarchy, never when it's a patriarchy, even when it is obviously a patriarchy. If you have a society, and every leader we hear about is male, and they have only male combatants, and so on, it's pretty obvious, I would argue, that that's a patriarchy.

I think you're mistaking me for somebody else. I don't recall making this claim here before, and I'm certainly not "pretending that, just because people aren't naming patriarchies, patriarchies, they're not patriarchies". So maybe dial back on the "you know perfectly well" and the "pfff disingenuous at best" rhetoric, please? A dwarf society with solely male leadership is definitely a patriarchy. And although, as you say, D&D has presented it without naming it consistently for decades, I get the distinct impression that you don't think it should continue to do so. I certainly don't. I'm not against depicting imperfect societies in D&D, but if the dwarves in your setting believe only sons can inherit or whatever, spell that out. Those sorts of tendencies may or may not constitute outright evil, but they tug in that direction, and -- to return to the point I made above -- "the most patriarchal society in D&D", the one at the extreme end of the spectrum, is I hope labeled as evil.

So if going forward we want to revise this "patriarchy by default" assumption of past editions, does this affect how we think about the drow matriarchy?

 

[SavageCole]

The original post (and referenced article) was a great read. Interesting history. As for how I used drow/dark elves in my games, we’ve never really gotten into describing the extent of hair curl, so I’m not sure I have much to contribute to the inevitable cultural skirmish in the comments.

A lot of drow/dark elves that I’ve encountered have had posh British accents for some reason. While a disproportionate number goblins and orcs I’ve encountered have cockney ones. Honestly after decades of play and a lifetime of living with actual brown-skinned people, connecting drow and people of African heritage seems superficial and twisted to me. But I appreciate that’s just my perspective.

 

[Pauln6]

Isn't there a Queen of Celene? Its been a while.

Ah yes but just having a female leader doesn't make you a matriarchy. Matriarchies often have inheritance laws that run through the female line. Women have the power to choose their own husbands. The first born women become heads of households etc.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Let's assume for the sake of argument you're right. We're not just talking about any matriarchy, we're talking about "the most matriarchal society in D&D". Of the spectrum of matriarchies, these people are at the extreme end. Even if not all matriarchies consider women superior to men, this presumably is the one that does.

There are two problems here.

1) If the most matriarchly society is defined by seeing women superior to men, and that the men are subjugated, we have a problem.

2) Drow aren't just "the most matriarchal society in DnD" they are the only one. Unless there is some incredibly obscure group I am not familiar with, Drow are the only Matriarchal society in DnD at all, and they are sexist in a near cartoonish fashion.

So, if your point is that we need a horrific cartoonishly evil "patriarchal" society. Well, despite all their problems, classical orcs do that one.

So let's step into the middle ground. Where is are the other matriarchies?

 

[jerryrice4949]

That black skin always bothered me for the same reason. Underground and deep sea creatures are quite often pale or even translucent skinned. Hmm, translucent skinned Drow, that's got some appeal actually, I always loved the Newhon Ghoul.

Me too! In my home brewed world most underground dwelling humanoids including drow are near albino. It also is more logical with the sunlight sensitivity.

 

[Fenris-77]

I've thought about it for a day, and I think I'm going to transition to translucent skinned Drow and go with a more creature from the depths feel. Bioluminesence, that sort of thing. Maybe not invisible muscle tissue like a Nehwon Ghoul, so visible muscle and transparent skin. Maybe their emotions trigger various sorts of bioluminesence. I'm going to work it though. I think I'll redo the whole origin thing to, I may make them the offspring of a Elder God, bound deep in the earth, who fashioned them in the likeness of elves because he was bound to the depths so long ago that they are only humanoids he knows. Maybe more of a hunter insect/hivemind kind of approach.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

1) If the most matriarchly society is defined by seeing women superior to men, and that the men are subjugated, we have a problem.

I honestly don't understand you here. If one society does this and another doesn't, I think we're on solid definitional ground calling the first society more matriarchal than the second.

2) Drow aren't just "the most matriarchal society in DnD" they are the only one. Unless there is some incredibly obscure group I am not familiar with, Drow are the only Matriarchal society in DnD at all, and they are sexist in a near cartoonish fashion.

So, if your point is that we need a horrific cartoonishly evil "patriarchal" society. Well, despite all their problems, classical orcs do that one.

So let's step into the middle ground. Where is are the other matriarchies?

Well, first of all, history unfortunately shows there's nothing cartoonish about the idea of extreme patriarchies.

Secondly, you're basically right, I could point to a couple of specific societies in specific settings that are less strictly matriarchal, but the drow are the only major one in default D&D. What does this mean, though? Does crazy drow culture have to be representative of all matriarchies, or can it just be crazy drow culture?

And thirdly, it's a bit strange to me to be looking for positive representation for matriarchies in the first place. There's a world of difference between that and positive representation for women. Flip the script: if orcs were the only patriarchy, would it make sense to say, "Hey, that's not fair to patriarchy, let's add some more positive portrayals of patriarchal societies"?

 

[Voadam]

I had not really thought about the warrior women drow being analogous to Amazons in Greek myth, other land warrior women who are dangerous to the base patriarchal society. I think because I primarily think of them as the decadent black-skinned demon worshipping magical evil elves.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I honestly don't understand you here. If one society does this and another doesn't, I think we're on solid definitional ground calling the first society more matriarchal than the second.

More sexist. But Sexist against men isn't the point of a Matriarchy.

Well, first of all, history unfortunately shows there's nothing cartoonish about the idea of extreme patriarchies.

Cartoonish in that it ends up being so extreme as to almost be a parody. Nothing really "cartoony" about Drow either, except that they are so evil it is hard to take seriously.

Secondly, you're basically right, I could point to a couple of specific societies in specific settings that are less strictly matriarchal, but the drow are the only major one in default D&D. What does this mean, though? Does crazy drow culture have to be representative of all matriarchies, or can it just be crazy drow culture?

And thirdly, it's a bit strange to me to be looking for positive representation for matriarchies in the first place. There's a world of difference between that and positive representation for women. Flip the script: if orcs were the only patriarchy, would it make sense to say, "Hey, that's not fair to patriarchy, let's add some more positive portrayals of patriarchal societies"?

To the second point, Drow society should not be representative of all matriarchal societies, but it is de facto representing them by being the only one.

To the third point, you are right, this isn't about positive representation of women, it is about positive representation of a form of society that is different from the norm. Egalitarian societies where both genders are equally in charge are of course better, but since we have so many patriarchies (quite possibly everything except Drow) but historically we have seen Matriarchal societies, I don't see any reason why not to have a positive representation of them.

I mean, we have positive and negative monarchies, positive and negative republics, positive and negative theocracies, positive and negative patriarchies...

And only negative matriarchies.

So, why not make a positive one?

 

[Charlaquin]

I've thought about it for a day, and I think I'm going to transition to translucent skinned Drow and go with a more creature from the depths feel. Bioluminesence, that sort of thing. Maybe not invisible muscle tissue like a Nehwon Ghoul, so visible muscle and transparent skin. Maybe their emotions trigger various sorts of bioluminesence. I'm going to work it though. I think I'll redo the whole origin thing to, I may make them the offspring of a Elder God, bound deep in the earth, who fashioned them in the likeness of elves because he was bound to the depths so long ago that they are only humanoids he knows. Maybe more of a hunter insect/hivemind kind of approach.

Torog!