The harder, the better - dm

if they use a rule for a purpose that was obviously not forseen by the Manual and that give some kind of odd result, perfectly consistent with the rules but not with reality. Yes I'm talking about the twin bastard swords and the ranger. The ranger? he shouldn't even know what a bastard sword is!
I believe what we have here are differing visions of what it means to be a ranger. The ranger has shifted around in various versions of D&D from being a guy who attacked on the fighter table and learned some druid spells as he leveled up, to being a 2-weapon fighter with his dual scimitars, to a tracker with an animal companion and a choice of 2-weapons or archery, and now to a weapons specialist striker.

You've come a long way Mr. Ranger, and you aren't stuck out in the forest anymore. Now you don't have to know Nature if you don't want to, but you are one of the best when it comes to using weapons and hitting where it hurts. The 4E rules allow you to be good at perception, nature skills and sneaking so you can be the woodswise scout who peppers people with arrows from a distance. Or you can be the champion of slice and dice dual wielding melee damage. Rangers cover pretty well the high dex combatant role, but don't let the name fool you. The class has a lot of flexibility now, and I see it appealing to anyone who wants to be really good with their weapons, even if they can't tell Kingsfoil from poison ivy.

So a bastard sword ranger? Fine and dandy. He spent a feat and a chunk of starting cash learning that skill. Let him play the character that he envisioned.
 

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You cannot dual wield bastard swords or use any weapon in your offhand to attack with that doesn't have the qualifier of "Off-hand"

pg 215

Some one-handed weapons are light enough for you to use in your off hand while holding another one-handed weapon in your main hand. Doing this doesn't let you make multiple attacks in a round (unless you have powers that let you do so), but you can attack with either weapon.

pg 217

Off-Hand - An off-hand weapon is light enough that you can hold it and attack effectively with it while holding a weapon in your main hand. You can't attack with both weapons in the same turn, unless you have a power that lets you do so, but you can attack with either weapon

Pg 218

Bastard sword, Properties = Versatile


Ranger:

Two-Blade Fighting Style:
Because of your focus on two-weapon melee attacks, you can wield a one-handed weapon in your off hand as if it were an off-hand weapon. (Make sure to designate on your character sheet which weapon is main and which is offhand.) In addition, you gain Toughness as a bonus feat.

 


I'm thinking of making a Dwarf Ranger now. If not for this thread I never would have considered it. Hide armor and a pair of battleaxes, with high STR, DEX, and CON... screw the rest. He'll be a savage tunnel fighter (Dungeoneering) with Twin Strike & Nimble Strike. Crap I can't wait to play this guy. :)
 

I was scared for a bit that I was the only one who thought that he might be a little overbearing about meta gaming and power gaming because someone might use two bastard swords.

Hey, I was worried because he was talking about killing the player (I mean, even killing the character would seem to be going too far). :)
 

The DM's job is different than the players - you're not supposed to use all that "power" to show how cool you are because you can kill some PC in your game. And I would think that the "others" that you're worried about who are not happy with the actions of the player in question aren't suddenly going to be thrilled when the game turns into some grudge-match between the DM and the player.

IMO the DM should really expect players to be advocates for their characters to an extent that they aren't going to appreciate a guilt-trip about their tactics. If, for example, a player discovers that his character can stand at the top of a cliff and throw rocks down at the monsters and kill them all without risk to the PC then you can pretty much expect him to do just that. I wouldn't take it as a mark of disrespect that the player doesn't ask your permission first.

This. If I made a ranger dual-wielding bastard swords, and my DM started accusing me of trying to "sneak the rules," the DM wouldn't have to kick me out - I'd leave that gaming table and not come back. Not because I have any particular attachment to dual-wielding bastard swords, but because the DM isn't handling the situation in anything remotely resembling a sensible fashion.

If the DM doesn't think people should be able to dual-wield bastard swords, which is not an unreasonable position, then the DM's response should be to say to the player, "Sorry. I don't allow dual-wielding bastard swords; I think it's grossly unrealistic that you could dual-wield weapons that big (or whatever the reasoning may be)." That's the DM's right.

If the player says, "Oh, okay. I'll switch to dual-wielding longswords and spend that feat on something else," then the matter should be closed. No holding grudges, no "three strikes and you're out" baloney, nothing like that. This is part of DMing and it happens all the time.

If the player doesn't agree with the DM's rationale for forbidding dual bastard swords, a discussion might ensue; as long as the discussion is civil, the DM gives the player a fair hearing, and the player accedes with good grace when the DM says "This is my final ruling," all is cool. This is a bit less clear-cut, since some players take advantage of a DM's willingness to hear them out (constantly griping over tiny things), but still, as long as it doesn't happen too often, this should also not be cause for any bad feelings on either side.

As for blowing up statues and walls and stuff... well, if you design dungeons where this is a profitable activity, you can hardly blame the players for engaging in it. It isn't abuse of the rules, it's using the tools the game gives them. Would you accuse them of "sneaking the rules" if they brought picks and shovels into the dungeon and started digging through the walls?

If you want them to stop, give them incentive to do so - valuable statuary that would bring a good haul back in town, or roaming monsters that are attracted to the noise of a warlock methodically eldritch blasting a wall into rubble, or time constraints that preclude mining activities. Or just be pointedly bored ("Okay, you blow apart another harmless statue. Were you going to do any actual adventuring tonight?") until they leave off. But don't punish players for having their characters do what those characters would logically do.

If there's one thing I've learned in my years as a DM, it's that players and DMs often disagree on what is and is not a reasonable interpretation of the rules. It's not because the player is a munchkin or a power gamer, it's because they see things differently. Some players also like to push the envelope a bit. Getting riled up about this is stupid. Just say "No" and leave it at that.
 
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I'm thinking of making a Dwarf Ranger now. If not for this thread I never would have considered it. Hide armor and a pair of battleaxes, with high STR, DEX, and CON... screw the rest. He'll be a savage tunnel fighter (Dungeoneering) with Twin Strike & Nimble Strike. Crap I can't wait to play this guy. :)
I'm way ahead of ya, man... ;)
 

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Lots of Power Players uh? :)

Ok (please consider the following as just quick samples)

1 Power Players are those one who pick up the brand new version of a race of the manual (you know it was the one they really disliked in previous edition...the worse) because now they have that wonderfull skill they didn't have before.... and who cares if the Dragonborn Bahamut Paladin kills every old farmer he meets along the road... do they like the game or their carachters because of their flavour?? NO they just wabnt the best output, they would do the Tiefling Babysitter if only he had some 10(W) "Blockbuster Movie to watch while he sleeps" Daily Power ;)

2 Regulatory issues: ever had a player constantly referring to rules to advice other players that the DM is not being fair? TRY IT. IT HAPPENS. I dont care if the encounter powers rule below mean something or not (I know you have to rest 5 min and all the related stuff BTW ): is the approach from such players that is unpleasant "per se". THEY WILL NOT STOP TRYING TO FIND AND EXPLOIT SOME GAP IN THE RULES TO BE MORE POWERFUL (FEEL SMARTER?) THAN OTHER PLAYERS... THIS IS WHY THEY DESERVE SOME CONSEQUENCES..NOT BECAUSE IN THIS WAY I FEEL BETTER :)

3 I dont have any EGO problem, as a DM I need to assure the fairness of the game, which is not attended when a player tries to ruin it.

4 I don't want to kill a ranger with bastard swords...I don't like it and that's all!!!! I never kill players because they don't play my way, I just mean they don't have to play in a way ruining the fun of everyone...

CIAO
 


Next time I'll find a player trying to sneak the rules in order to get some pathetic advantage over monsters, other players, the environment and/or the setting, I'll do the following in the following order:

1. Ban that player from my games. IF NOT POSSIBLE (he's a friend? he owns the house? His GF is amazingly cute?), THEN 2
2. Give the other players outrages bonuses he will never have, therefore reducing any advantage he may obtain. IF NOT POSSIBLE (unbalancing ther game?), THEN 3.
3.Kill his player in the fastest way, with monsters and traps patently ataccking him way more than other players. He'll know the reason why, and even if he complains (he will), you will know you're right, letting him know that notwithstanding the incredible combos he may aschieve bending the rules at his disposal, you will always have much more power. It is like showing Frodo what a Gandalf with the Ring would be able to do (evily) because the young hobbit thinks using the Ring from time to time is not a big deal...

Amateur hour. . . I can see you are new to DMing.

The correct way to handle this. . .

Sleep with the guy's girlfriend. Take pictures and keep them in your wallet or as a screen saver on your computer. Share them with your other friends.

If the guy complains, ask him to point out where the rule is documented that says you can't.
 

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