The Heroic Impulse: Where Have All the Heroes Gone?

[FireLance]

Because its so glorious to slay Tiamat and not be able to climb up to her lair for the treasure.

Climbing is so 4th level. Why climb when you can fly?

 

[Mallus]

A 1e 15th level character cannot swim any better than a 1st level character...

So 1e's inability to model Michael Phelps somehow makes it more heroic?

He's simply better trained with a weapon and has greater survivability.

What you're calling 'greater survivability' includes enough hit points to survive falling off a 100 ft. cliff onto a pile of jagged rocks and saving throws that make the character mostly immune to all manner of supernatural harm.

Defensive superpowers are still superpowers cf. Longshot.

AD&D characters have no super powers.

Except for magic spells and supernatural class abilities (and hit points and saving throws). Magic spells are still superpowers cf. Dr. Strange.

In 3e, a rogue can literally tumble through a wall of force and swim up a waterfall.

At high epic levels.

AD&D characters have 3 things that separate them from commoners. hit points, thac0, and better saves.

And magic spells/magic items which are analogous to superpowers.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

So 1e's inability to model Michael Phelps somehow makes it more heroic?


What you're calling 'greater survivability' includes enough hit points to survive falling off a 100 ft. cliff onto a pile of jagged rocks and saving throws that make the character mostly immune to all manner of supernatural harm.

Defensive superpowers are still superpowers cf. Longshot.


Except for magic spells and supernatural class abilities (and hit points and saving throws). Magic spells are still superpowers cf. Dr. Strange.


At high epic levels.


And magic spells/magic items which are analogous to superpowers.

This should be another topic, but spells I can deal with. they are temporary and logical in a world where magic exists. Superhero style bulletproof, flying, teleporting elves are not. That said, though, I wouldn't call a wizard casting fly and rescuing little Timmy from a tree very heroic, either. A very nice thing for the wizard to do, sure, but heroism invokes a personal risk of some sort. Sure AD&D characters grow powerful, but they are still prone to all the things normal humans are. They can drown, die from poison, and yes, even falls if you use Gary's intended falling damage rules (1d6 cumulative, I.E, a 30 foot fall equals 6d6 damage.) All I'm saying is that each editions power creep makes characters more and more powerful and the more powerful one gets, the less heroic their acts are.

 

[Remathilis]

This should be another topic, but spells I can deal with. they are temporary and logical in a world where magic exists. Superhero style bulletproof, flying, teleporting elves are not. That said, though, I wouldn't call a wizard casting fly and rescuing little Timmy from a tree very heroic, either. A very nice thing for the wizard to do, sure, but heroism invokes a personal risk of some sort. Sure AD&D characters grow powerful, but they are still prone to all the things normal humans are. They can drown, die from poison, and yes, even falls if you use Gary's intended falling damage rules (1d6 cumulative, I.E, a 30 foot fall equals 6d6 damage.) All I'm saying is that each editions power creep makes characters more and more powerful and the more powerful one gets, the less heroic their acts are.

Well, isn't that partially the problem of (A)D&D's spell system that spells always work? Fly never makes you fall, cure disease works on everything short of mummy-rot, and heal is the ultimate boo-boo band-aid. Perhaps if D&D magic was a bit more unpredictable (chance of failure, etc) it would feel more heroic. (Then again, I've never been a giant fan of D&D's "I cast Solve Problem spell" method of spell resolution, but that's another topic...)

Actually, this is one place 4e does BETTER than AD&D; certain rituals (cure disease, remove affliction) have a chance of failure, even Death. Its much more dangerous in 4e to heal non-hp damage than it was in 3.X...

 

[shilsen]

All I'm saying is that each editions power creep makes characters more and more powerful and the more powerful one gets, the less heroic their acts are.

Not necessarily. As long as their opposition and the risks increase to match the power increase, the acts can remain heroic too.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Well, isn't that partially the problem of (A)D&D's spell system that spells always work? Fly never makes you fall, cure disease works on everything short of mummy-rot, and heal is the ultimate boo-boo band-aid. Perhaps if D&D magic was a bit more unpredictable (chance of failure, etc) it would feel more heroic. (Then again, I've never been a giant fan of D&D's "I cast Solve Problem spell" method of spell resolution, but that's another topic...)

Actually, this is one place 4e does BETTER than AD&D; certain rituals (cure disease, remove affliction) have a chance of failure, even Death. Its much more dangerous in 4e to heal non-hp damage than it was in 3.X...

Obviously, you've never witnessed the variable time that 1e spells last cause serious problems for players. Having had a magic-user whose fly ended earlier than expected plummet to his death, I can say that failure is possible.


RC

 

[Lizard]

Actually, this is one place 4e does BETTER than AD&D; certain rituals (cure disease, remove affliction) have a chance of failure, even Death.

But Raise Dead does NOT, which I find amusing -- you can kill someone with Cure Disease, but never fail to Raise them.

 

[Jack7]

But Raise Dead does NOT, which I find amusing -- you can kill someone with Cure Disease, but never fail to Raise them.

Indeed. Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when our magic fails reality.

 

[Mallus]

Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when our magic fails reality.

I thought failing reality was the whole point of magic.

 

[Jack7]

The Ballad of the Balanced Heroes

I thought failing reality was the whole point of magic.

I like the way you put that, so true enough.

By the way, here's a little ditty I had written and meant to put under the first post in this thread, but got busy and never got round to it.

The Ballad of the Balanced Heroes


That’s impossible my friend
It’s not very safe,
The odds say the run
Is not worth the race,

It’s dangerous, it’s risky
It’s so very hard
It’s dire and desperate
You won’t get too far,

It’s scary and fretful
And so very dark
That kind of adventure's
No walk in the park,

Let’s find an encounter
That’s fit for our wits
Nothing that’s too harsh
To give us a fit,

I’m not much for caves
Where the monsters do lair
That’s sounds kinda creepy
And damp is the air,

Abandoned old castles
Don’t thrill me too much,
Why something in there
Might just have me for lunch,

I don’t like a tomb
That’s filled with the dead,
Such a harrowing place
Could give me the dreads,

And who likes a hamlet
With guilds full of thieves?
Best well avoided
Than a running retreat,

So mount up your horses
We’re riding by town,
I hear that there’s danger
In there to be found,

Why “better than even”
Is all that we ask,
It’s only quite fair
If peril’s your task

What makes a good Hero
Is waiting around,
To see if some patsy
Will ride into town,

We’ll send such a lout
In to take all the risk
Then we’ll come a’lootin
To see what was missed,

For when X stands for danger
It don’t mark the spot,
But rather it tells you
Just what is for naught,

Cause there’s one thing
We Heroes are never about,
“That’s taking on danger
Whenever there’s doubt!”

So I’m gonna watch
From the corner right here,
Til the odds tell me
“Hero, there’s nothing to fear!”
​