The Illusion of Powergaming

[Oryan77]

But they don't. Not everyone will spend a mind-numbing amount of hours trying to tweek out advantages by scouring all the books. Some people actually manage to have a life beyond that of the game.

That is a really silly argument. Essentially, you are saying that each ofl the players should lower themselves to their lowest common denominator to avoid being 'better' than anybody else in the group-- even if that is because the others in the group (or even just one of them!) are too lazy to read their books.

I found his post described my situation quite well. I don't think it is silly. Referring to people who don't scour the supplement books as "lazy" sounds pretty silly to me. Being lazy has nothing to do with it...and, there's nothing wrong with a player that likes to scour through every book either. But a powergamer that spends extra time (I'll say "extra" instead of "spending hours") has an advantage in a game if others are not also building their PC's in the most efficiently-maximized way possible. That's a given.

But D&D 3.5 requires a lot of balance to make things easier on the game overall. If a group doesn't need balance, then there's no problem. But my situation as a DM calls for balance. If a powergamer is making it difficult for me to run an encounter that is balanced for the party, then I have a problem. I don't scour the books as much as the powergamers in my group because my free time is spent prepping adventures, checking rules, & creating NPC's. Since they raise the bar while other players don't, then my encounters become unbalanced if I try to match their power.

Whenever I want to hurt the powergamer & make NPC's powerful enough to threaten him, that same NPC slaughters the nonpowergamers. When I make my NPC's equal to the nonpowergamers, then the powergamer slaughters the NPC & outshines the other PC's. My time is also wasted for spending an extra effort on NPC creation just to threaten the powergamer when I could have been working more on the adventure prepping.

I don't think there is anything wrong with powergaming if it works for the group. But it doesn't work for every group if the DM doesn't have the time or skills to deal with it. I don't care, or have the time, to tweak challenges for a single overpowered PC just because he spends his time reading sourcebooks more than the rest.

It all comes down to being a difference in playstyles. And if the DM or powergamer aren't willing to form some type of gentlemans agreement to make each other happy, then there's a problem. Being a powergamer isn't a problem...it's clashing playstyles that's a problem.

 

[Ourph]

This is mostly a social contract issue. And just to be clear, I am not saying that such issues don't exist. I am saying that the problem of powergaming is *not* the issue -- it's differing expectations and preferences. No one is wrong, even the powergamer. It ust is. in a perfect world, we'd be able to play with a group that suited our desires perfectly. This being what it is (the East Coast) you kind of have to stick with what you've got.

I agree completely. My point was that, in some cases, the strain on the social contract can be effectively reduced simply by switching to a different ruleset where different playstyles don't have such a drastic effect on the overall effectiveness of characters in the game. Thus, it's incorrect to state categorically that system can't ever be criticized in regard to powergaming. If changing the system can fix the problem, then system plays a role in the problem.

 

[Anti-Sean]

c'mon, no real powergamer would play an Illusionist - it's *way* too easy for a DM to gimp that class, since so much relies on their interpretation.

 

[Banshee16]

You're equating 2 things that, IMO, aren't the same. Creating a monstrously effective character (powergaming) is not inherently connected to whether or not that character has role-playing/setting/group value. That's a player/play-style/expectation issue.

When making a monstrously effective character is your only motivation, and it means that you're only there to be a combat master, and the rest of the time, you're either trying to get the rest of the party into fights, in order to beat up things more often, or completely clamming up for non-combat aspects of the game? That's all part of power gaming.

Further, the style has less value if the other players aren't into it. As a DM, you're forced to make encounters lethal in order to challenge the power gamer, but often this puts them beyond the capabilities of the rest of the group who haven't twinked their characters.

I've read your thread and I'd say that your "powergamer problem" is about as mild as it gets. Making arrows? Come on, man.

I think you've got the wrong thread Unless I've got amnesia, I haven't talked anything about making arrows.

I have two threads on the issue. One is where my group dissolved, and one of the complaints was about the utter lack of roleplaying by one of the players. The older thread, which was months ago, discussed the problems caused by the powergamer in the party making a character so lethal that encounters had to be so difficult, in order to challenge him, that the rest of the party was getting slaughtered.

It was very much a "look at me, look how tough I am" kind of attitude.

But nothing about making arrows...

I didn't say that the DM never has to make arbitrary decisions -- hopefully ones informed by the existing ruleset. But handwavery is different altogether -- and tangential to my main point. Handwaving is DM laziness to the Nth degree: if you want to include something, exclude something, alter the game to meet a setting specific mood, etc..., then do the work to actually make a decision and understand its implications.

And, besides, Rules Lawyering is an entirely different problem than Powergaming, and one that deserves its own thread.

This last statement, I'd agree with. My homegrown powergamer was also a rules lawyer, so he'd argue points, in game, which slowed things to a halt. Typically it was only when it worked to his advantage. He'd find a loophole, when it benefited him...but if that loophole was later used against him, all of a sudden, it's not acceptable.

Regarding handwaving, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, so I apologize if that's how it came across. I was simply expressing that I disagree that it's always bad *if* that's what you were trying to say.

Maybe it's just me, but sometimes, during something like a foot chase through crowded city streets, it really breaks the entire scene up to pull out the battle map and start utilizing movement rates and everything to figure out where everyone is. It's far more exciting to put that edge of excitement in your voice, lean in to the players, and start narrating what they're seeing as they chase the thief, how they react when he knocks over the apple cart, etc. etc.

To me, that's handwaiving. I didn't necessarily role a check to see if the thief can knock over that car. It's far more exciting to describe that it just happen, and then find out how the players deal with it.

The reverse is also true. Also, don't believe for a second that less mechanically complex games can't be powergamed.

I am absolutely aware. To a degree or other, any game can be powergamed. But games with more handwaving leave more up to the GM, and as a result, it's more inherently accepted in those games that the GM may just overrule or disallow certain things. And sometimes, that makes for better drama.

I am of the opinion that D&D is better than it has ever been, largely due to the fact that it has added one element it always lacked: rules consistency.

I will not deny that it has improved in many ways. But I think that, somewhat, the pendulum has swung the other way. It's far too mired in certain assumptions....ie. X many encounters per day, 4 character party, magic items a central part of balance, etc. It makes it more difficult to make games where some of those conventions aren't true.

Examples are settings like Midnight or Swashbuckling Adventures, where there are few to no magic items. This throws all kinds of things off....PC attack and defense capabilities, healing etc. Which in turn requires recalculation of encounter CRs etc. Then the creation of new feats that take the place of openings created by the lack of certain things (such as rings of protection) that the game assumes you have by certain levels, etc.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

I found his post described my situation quite well. I don't think it is silly. Referring to people who don't scour the supplement books as "lazy" sounds pretty silly to me. Being lazy has nothing to do with it...and, there's nothing wrong with a player that likes to scour through every book either. But a powergamer that spends extra time (I'll say "extra" instead of "spending hours") has an advantage in a game if others are not also building their PC's in the most efficiently-maximized way possible. That's a given.

But D&D 3.5 requires a lot of balance to make things easier on the game overall. If a group doesn't need balance, then there's no problem. But my situation as a DM calls for balance. If a powergamer is making it difficult for me to run an encounter that is balanced for the party, then I have a problem. I don't scour the books as much as the powergamers in my group because my free time is spent prepping adventures, checking rules, & creating NPC's. Since they raise the bar while other players don't, then my encounters become unbalanced if I try to match their power.

Whenever I want to hurt the powergamer & make NPC's powerful enough to threaten him, that same NPC slaughters the nonpowergamers. When I make my NPC's equal to the nonpowergamers, then the powergamer slaughters the NPC & outshines the other PC's. My time is also wasted for spending an extra effort on NPC creation just to threaten the powergamer when I could have been working more on the adventure prepping.

I don't think there is anything wrong with powergaming if it works for the group. But it doesn't work for every group if the DM doesn't have the time or skills to deal with it. I don't care, or have the time, to tweak challenges for a single overpowered PC just because he spends his time reading sourcebooks more than the rest.

It all comes down to being a difference in playstyles. And if the DM or powergamer aren't willing to form some type of gentlemans agreement to make each other happy, then there's a problem. Being a powergamer isn't a problem...it's clashing playstyles that's a problem.

I think that's a valid statement. Similar to how speed doesn't kill....the presence of vehicles at high speed with those at low speed does that.

The problems you describe are very similar to ones I've had with powergamers. If the entire group had been powergamers, it wouldn't have been an issue. I'd just make really challenging encounters, and everyone would be happy. But having a powergamer with 3 roleplayers becomes a pain, because everyone else gets frustrated that the powergamer just munches everything, which leaves them with nothing to do. And then, when there's no action, because the characters are roleplaying, the powergamers can get disruptive, because they want to get back to the action.

A statement made earlier (not by you) commented about the non-powergamers being "lazy" for not reading their books. That's kind of an odd position to take. There is life outside of the game, and to many players, they want to get together, have a good time for the night, and go home. They don't spend days trying to figure out how to get an extra +1 to hit out of their character.

Banshee

 

[Janaxstrus]

I found his post described my situation quite well. I don't think it is silly. Referring to people who don't scour the supplement books as "lazy" sounds pretty silly to me. Being lazy has nothing to do with it...and, there's nothing wrong with a player that likes to scour through every book either. But a powergamer that spends extra time (I'll say "extra" instead of "spending hours") has an advantage in a game if others are not also building their PC's in the most efficiently-maximized way possible. That's a given.

If a person who reads the books and optimizes his character "has no life outside the game", then I would think it's perfectly acceptable to assume that people who don't read up and power game are "lazy", or people could just stop making assumptions and accusations belittling others. But that seems excessive.

The person who enjoys role-playing more has an advantage "in game" when it comes to that part of the game. Just like the powergamer has an advantage when it comes to combat.

Then again, I've always been of the opinion that anyone playing a gimped character on purpose is playing poorly anyway. Any self-respecting adventurer SHOULD be trying to become as effective as possible, it is, after all, a matter of life and death for them.

 

[Oryan77]

The person who enjoys role-playing more has an advantage "in game" when it comes to that part of the game. Just like the powergamer has an advantage when it comes to combat.

You're exactly right. The only thing is, a person lacking roleplaying skills has mechanics on his side (bluff, sense motive, diplomacy). That allows me as a DM to "easily" balance the roleplaying scenario with the naturally good roleplayers & the powergamer that struggles with roleplaying. I'm unable to "easily" balance things in combat encounters for a powergamer vs casual gamer.

 

[green slime]

That is a really silly argument. Essentially, you are saying that each ofl the players should lower themselves to their lowest common denominator to avoid being 'better' than anybody else in the group-- even if that is because the others in the group (or even just one of them!) are too lazy to read their books.

You imply that making an effective character takes "hours" of "scouring all the books" and having no "life beyond that of the game". Frankly, you are just wrong. Maybe *you* are incapable of making effective characters except under such conditions, but that is not generally reflective of most players' experiences that I have witnessed. Put another way, perhaps you define "powergamers" as anybody who can design a more effective character than you can?

Wow. :\

No, I wasn't talking about a mere "effective" character, but if you can't see that...

Wow.

 

[Nifft]

IMHO, powergaming is a phase.

1/ Intro -> learning the system -> focus on archtype, make stupid mistakes, learn

2/ System mastery -> exult in new power -> create combat-monsters because you can

3/ System transcendence -> realize you can use your system mastery to make the PC you want, rather than the best PC evar. roleplay a PC of your choice with the mechanics to back the concept up.

- - -

For example, a phase 1 swordsman might look like the following. (I've chosen Bastard Sword because it's got a bigger damage die than a Longsword, and therefore looks like a good choice. Also, it's exotic! So it has to be better.)

1: Ftr 1 -- Exotic Weapon Prof (Bastard Sword), Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), Power Attack
2: Ftr 2 -- Cleave
3: Ftr 3 -- Improved Sunder
4: Ftr 4 -- Weapon Spec (Bastard Sword)


Now, phase 2 might look like this, for all the reasons that people make fun of powergamers:

1: Barbarian 1 -- Combat Expertise, Improved Trip -- (with Flaws: Power Attack, Improved Initiative)
2: Fighter 1 -- Exotic Weapon Prof (Spiked Chain)
3: Fighter 2 -- Combat Reflexes, Power Attack or Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
4: Barbarian 2 -- Uncanny Dodge


However, phase 3 is the synthesis of good RP'ing and good grasp of the mechanicals. The player uses every trick in the book to make himself simply the best swordsman in the land.

1: Warblade 1 (plus one flaw, -2 to Ranged attacks) -- Quickdraw, Weapon Focus (Longsword), Unnerving Calm -- (stance) Stance of Clarity, Moment of Perfect Mind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Steel Wind
2: Warblade 2 -- Uncany Dodge -- Douse the Flames
3: Warblade 3 -- Improved Initiative -- Disarming Strike
4: Fighter 1 -- Combat Expertise
5: Fighter 2 -- Improved Disarm
6: Warblade 4 -- Perfect Clarity of Body and Mind -- (stance) Absolute Steel Stance, Steel Wind -> Insightful Strike

He's got a few tricks, and he's good at them. He's tweaked to be devastating against a single humanoid opponent, and decent against many. Basically, he's defined his niche, and then used every rule at his disposal to actually fit into his niche, which is the World's Greatest Swordsman.

Cheers, -- N

 

[boredgremlin]

I dont worry about powergamers.

In order to powergame they allways suffer at something else. Usually the mental/social skills. In my games i regularly separate characters and make them operate independently so that the drooling idiot/ chainmaster winds up getting himself imprisoned, trapped, enslaved or killed by hordes, no more power gamer. The next character will be a little more balanced because the player learns i meant it when i said no one could be a 1 dimensional carboard, munchkin cutout.

That includes the "roleplayers" who suck at combat, because its in their character to be the leper, half-blind, crippled, beggar... because its a cool concept... Umm no its not. Its a pathetic social parasite that doesnt have any right to survive the first session as an adventurer, much less be coddled as an excuse drag down the other characters in a fight.

Simply forcing all your players to confront varied situations on thier own prevents them from twinking any one facet of their character to the point of "munchkinism".
If you have a problem with a power gamer then split up your group and force all of them to face a fight, a mental challenge of some sort and a social situation with a penalty for seeming like a total reject. No challenge needs to be grossly hard, just average for consequences for failing. Munchkins will be terrible at anything but the fighting. So you penalize them twice each time. Make this a regular occurence and you'll find they either balance thier characters more on the next few level advancements or they die and eventually leave for a more twink freindly group and no longer trouble you.