The Illusion of Powergaming

[Drowbane]

But they don't. Not everyone will spend a mind-numbing amount of hours trying to tweek out advantages by scouring all the books. Some people actually manage to have a life beyond that of the game.

.

Some people just don't get it.

 

[Drowbane]

Nifft is my hero!

IMHO, powergaming is a phase.

1/ Intro -> learning the system -> focus on archtype, make stupid mistakes, learn

2/ System mastery -> exult in new power -> create combat-monsters because you can

3/ System transcendence -> realize you can use your system mastery to make the PC you want, rather than the best PC evar. roleplay a PC of your choice with the mechanics to back the concept up.

- - -

For example, a phase 1 swordsman might look like the following. (I've chosen Bastard Sword because it's got a bigger damage die than a Longsword, and therefore looks like a good choice. Also, it's exotic! So it has to be better.)

1: Ftr 1 -- Exotic Weapon Prof (Bastard Sword), Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), Power Attack
2: Ftr 2 -- Cleave
3: Ftr 3 -- Improved Sunder
4: Ftr 4 -- Weapon Spec (Bastard Sword)


Now, phase 2 might look like this, for all the reasons that people make fun of powergamers:

1: Barbarian 1 -- Combat Expertise, Improved Trip -- (with Flaws: Power Attack, Improved Initiative)
2: Fighter 1 -- Exotic Weapon Prof (Spiked Chain)
3: Fighter 2 -- Combat Reflexes, Power Attack or Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
4: Barbarian 2 -- Uncanny Dodge


However, phase 3 is the synthesis of good RP'ing and good grasp of the mechanicals. The player uses every trick in the book to make himself simply the best swordsman in the land.

1: Warblade 1 (plus one flaw, -2 to Ranged attacks) -- Quickdraw, Weapon Focus (Longsword), Unnerving Calm -- (stance) Stance of Clarity, Moment of Perfect Mind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Steel Wind
2: Warblade 2 -- Uncany Dodge -- Douse the Flames
3: Warblade 3 -- Improved Initiative -- Disarming Strike
4: Fighter 1 -- Combat Expertise
5: Fighter 2 -- Improved Disarm
6: Warblade 4 -- Perfect Clarity of Body and Mind -- (stance) Absolute Steel Stance, Steel Wind -> Insightful Strike

He's got a few tricks, and he's good at them. He's tweaked to be devastating against a single humanoid opponent, and decent against many. Basically, he's defined his niche, and then used every rule at his disposal to actually fit into his niche, which is the World's Greatest Swordsman.

Cheers, -- N

Huzzah! Someone who does get it!!

 

[William drake]

Where players optimise, the DM should equalise. That's the name of the game, whatever the rules.

I couldn’t have said it better myself.

Now, I understand the main writer of this blogs point: in truth, there is no such thing as a Power Gamer. This is true, for some games are about kicking ass and taking names in the best, and most devastating ways. I also agree that: books, mins, and other sources don’t outrightly make a power gamer...they are tools, nothing more, nothing less.


On the other hand, I would concise the argument of most people who feel that Power Gaming is a problem to this:

When those, including the DM, are playing a game where weapons, armor, magic, items, kills, skills, feats and so on, aren’t the line or defintion of a great hero, where the point of the game, is not like others have said “to win, to out last, to kill everything in site” then, power gaming becomes an issue.

Now, certainly every gamer does a bit of “tweaking” and I’d expect no less, however, as a DM myself, I say “ where one thing is best, another thing must lack” and I think this is the point, as you say, whether it be “old gamers” or “new gamers” some people don’t draw that line in the sand, and are said to make “perfect heros.” I will say now, that, if that is the intent of the game, then fine, but unlike what someone else said Superman has a flaw...it’s the people, its his weakness for them, it’s the fact that he’d give up his power to save humanity, or louis herself if he were not able to beat said foe.

What I’m talking about is, and I follow the grips: some players stack to the point where it’s annoying..and as a DM, I don’t want to have to do the same thing. I don’t want to make the unlikely array of skills, feats, magic, and weapons strung together for a foe to stand against what is also another sword-toting anomaly.

Getting back to the “Tweaking”
Sure, you have a powerful sword, or all of your points go into your DEX, or your have more powerful armor, or particular combat spells. Those gamers who do these things, and don’t try and fix, or smudge the fact that by doing this, there should be weaknesses like: for the powerful sword “is it cursed, what happens when it leaves you or is broken?” for your Dex “what happens when you fight a foe that needs to be taken down with raw damage, and your just quick, fast, and hard to catch. Or, what happens when someone said five trained druids after you to lock you down with group effort of tangle?” for the armor “what happens when your without it, or its broken?” and to the spells “what happens when your not in combat, and it would take fly, or perhaps a social spell to overcome the foe?” When gamers, those who have said “tweaks” leave some of these things open, and don’t try and cover all of their bases as if it were a video game, then I say fine. When players however, try and be everything, with no weaknesses, then I say they are Power Gamers.

An example I’ve seen on this site.
Someone was putting all of their stats into being a great bowman...fine, cool, you’re an archer..and a great one. The obvious thing is, well, what happens if you need to fight with a sword, a knife, or w/e. The player argues “well, I always have my bow with me.” And at times where they player would have to depart with their weapons, the said archer wold “well, then I’m not going...I don’t go anywhere without it.” See, its this stuff, but it’s not over. Also, later the argument of arrows is brought up, the player then says “well, I’m going to get a quiver that never runs out...or, well I’m going to learn to make arrows therefore, I’ll never be out.” This player is so worried about being out of arrows he’s taking it to an extreme point. He doesn’t want to understand that you have to buy them, you don’t always have them, and yes, you run out, or drop them or lose them while running away. Also, when you explain that to make one arrow, takes atleast an hour, if your master, since doing the task has become routine, and you explain that they want to make a full quiver, some where in the area of 30 arrows, and you say “dude, there’s not enough time in the night, also, how are you carrying around a bundle of heads, shafts, and feathers...your not a walking WALMART for arrows.” The player then preceeds to get upset, and complain that your pointing a lot of unwanted anger against him.

That is a powergamer...someone who’s made something to “win the game” and then once finding out that there are shortcomings, tires to fix the system which brings his character to a level of Minmaxing that DM’s hate.

Also, these players tend to get under the skin of other players. These other players may “Tweak” but, they keep in mind their limitations, and when they see that one player, is so annoying that the DM is allowing it “which I don’t think any DM should do, but some DM’s wish to tell a story so bad that they let themselves be stepped upon” they get mad, and that builds a level of animosity between the party members


Now, back to the quote: yes, the DM is an equalizer, and to equalize some games, particular styles of gaming have to be put out of their game in order for the group to go on.

Best example of a good “Tweaked” closest level to a power gamer I’d allow.

Anyone read Elric Song of the Black Sword? Well, if not...here we go. Elric is a darkelf “no, he’s not black, he’s a real serious no kind of evil elf” and he is the last emeperor of his people. He’s a powerful wizard, with dragons and armies...and a sword which is the nastiest thing I’ve ever seen...but, here we go. Elric is sickly...he needs drugs to keep him alive, to keep him going. He also loves one woman...those two things, are his weaknesses...everything else is a story based “tweak” but he’s not perfect. He also has psychological issues, depression, revenge..and other things that make him an all around hero. And, even though he has this powerful sword...he’s not a god with it, he’s not the best with it...he’s good, he’s great..but he’s not perfect. His “tweak” is that he has it, but the drugs he has to take effect him all the time. And He NEVER EVER GETS OVER IT...he DOESN’T find a way around it...he goes with it, struggles against it...never overcomes it...it’s apart of him, it makes him and without he, he’d be just another lame hero who never fails.

You’re thoughts.

 

[Maine-iac!]

But they don't. Not everyone will spend a mind-numbing amount of hours trying to tweek out advantages by scouring all the books. Some people actually manage to have a life beyond that of the game.

If they can't take the heat from someone who knows the rules of THEIR game better, then either eject the player who knows those rules, or learn the rules that THEY are using. If it's a matter of too many books to 'scour', confine then to the core.

Again, in-character, a character is going to take every advantage he/she needs to to survive, be it in the dungeon or at the foot stool of the local king. If a feat path or skill set is there to learn, he/she will probably learn it, being the top 1% in the gaming world (you know, the heroes.) Taking advantage of the tools already given is not powergaming. I think someone above stated doing so and not sharing the wealth with the other players IS powergaming.

This is D&D 3.x. If you want to play THAT game, then play THAT game. Otherwise, find another game. Don't punish players who play by the rules. Many so called 'powergamers' role play well, also. But taking a player's personal skill set over their character's skill set (we are different, aren't we?) is wrong. If your table requires long drawn out orations from each player, you're putting the onus on the player, not the character.

 

[Maldor]

I have been called a powergamer many times by a DM of mine and it is very annoying becuase his defantion of a roleplayer is someone who gimps their chacter

But i spent hour days think about background abilitys goals qurks and many other thing pouring effort into my chacter so that i will enjoy playing them so yes they are storng becuase if you spent most of a week makeing a chacter and then he gets killed by the frist rock throwing kobald then its a waist

and if your woundering how he gimped his chacter lets just say at level three he was droped to neg HP by a camel. though this was very funny and we still make fun of him for it he never gimped quite that much again but still gets upset when he makes a weak chacter and nobody else does becuase "their all powergamers and i'm a roleplayer"

 

[Reynard]

I think you've got the wrong thread Unless I've got amnesia, I haven't talked anything about making arrows.

Oops. I assumed. And you know what that means...

To me, that's handwaiving. I didn't necessarily role a check to see if the thief can knock over that car. It's far more exciting to describe that it just happen, and then find out how the players deal with it.

I think we have a different definition of handwaving. I meant the process of vaguely defining in-game elements out of laziness or a desire to manipulate/over-rule the players, not just occassionally doing things a little different to speed up play, increase the fun, etc...

Example: I was once accused of handwaving to beat on the PCs due to enemies that kept appearing and attacking the PCs no matter where they were. What the offended player did not know is that I defined, in game terms and on paper, a teleporting scrying pool for the Big Bad (who was in fact, a BIG BAD - Vol, of Eberron). I never had a chance to show the player or give the PCs the artifact location because the game fell apart.

not deny that it has improved in many ways. But I think that, somewhat, the pendulum has swung the other way. It's far too mired in certain assumptions....ie. X many encounters per day, 4 character party, magic items a central part of balance, etc. It makes it more difficult to make games where some of those conventions aren't true.

I think that things like CR, ECL and such are there for the new and/or typical player. I also think that it is expected that more experienced or "advanced" players will try different things and have to adjust some of those basic assumptions and systems. Just because there is a baseline doesn't mean its immutable, and I think WotC knows that -- lookat UA, PHBII and DMGII, just t name a few.[/QUOTE]

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

My biggest power gamer spends no time outside the sessions on his character, but give him 10 minutes and he will maximize pretty much any character he can think of. My group is mostly power gamers I guess, in the sense that they aren't there to hone their acting chops, explore the human condition, or find out how much fun they can have with a mechanically worthless character, they are there to adventure and roll dice and play the game so they figure they need to make effective characters for that role. They also have a solid grasp on tactics which keeps me on my toes. There is a player who is the opposite, he is unable to maximize the rules, grabs feats and skills based on what seems cool for his character ideas, etc. He fits in just fine since he doesn't worry that another character is a little better in some aspect, it's a team game and he's glad to have effective comrades. Plus he has fun with his character so who cares about the rest?

 

[green slime]

If they can't take the heat from someone who knows the rules of THEIR game better, then either eject the player who knows those rules, or learn the rules that THEY are using. If it's a matter of too many books to 'scour', confine then to the core.

Again, in-character, a character is going to take every advantage he/she needs to to survive, be it in the dungeon or at the foot stool of the local king. If a feat path or skill set is there to learn, he/she will probably learn it, being the top 1% in the gaming world (you know, the heroes.) Taking advantage of the tools already given is not powergaming. I think someone above stated doing so and not sharing the wealth with the other players IS powergaming.

This is D&D 3.x. If you want to play THAT game, then play THAT game. Otherwise, find another game. Don't punish players who play by the rules. Many so called 'powergamers' role play well, also. But taking a player's personal skill set over their character's skill set (we are different, aren't we?) is wrong. If your table requires long drawn out orations from each player, you're putting the onus on the player, not the character.

I suggest you read what was written, previously, by the poster in question before you start shouting (in block letters). Shouting causes people to ignore any valid points you may have, and causes conversations to get ugly, real fast.

 

[schporto]

I've seen some powergaming. Now how I define this is the player who makes his character better at damage dealing then anyone else, and is not interested in the role playing part. As soon as I called for initiative they would be the first with dice out. During non-combat, nary a word. This is where powergaming becomes bad I think. And yes I think powergaming is a badly defined. My issue is more with the "combat monkey". But its funny the combat monkeys are always tweaked and optimized to do as much damage in battle as possible.
The mention of handwaving made me think though. These same players often ask something like "can we handwave this?" referring to a RP information gathering another player was doing. I wonder what the response would be to handwaving a battle. As a DM just saying "Well, those bad guys are dead. Player A & B lose 10 hp, C&D lose none." Yeah that'd go over well....

Yes I realize an optimized character can also be a role play character too. It just seems when powergamers build a character they'll spend 95% of the time on the mechanical and 5% on the background, character development etc. If that was more 75/25 I think it would work better. The mechanical unbalance would be a problem, but, could be overcome.

Oh, and one odd note. If your party starts _depending_ on that power gamer. And they leave. Boy, they start panicking quick!
-cpd

 

[nute]

Powergaming, when it exists, is always 100% the DM's fault.

If the DM doesn't have control over what's allowed in his campaign, then he's not doing a good job. This also follows for DMs who let players fudge their dice rolls, alter stats on their sheets, etc.

"Roleplaying" implies that the players get into the personality of their character, not just the stats. Phil the Bard woos the barmaid because he's an insatiable lothario, not because he has a 19 Charisma and expects to get XP for "acting in character". Bob the Ranger doesn't pick goblinoids as his favored enemy because the bonuses allow him to slay CR 1/2 goblins by the dozens, they're his favored enemy because a band of hobgoblins razed his humble farming village to the ground. That's roleplaying.

An easy answer to powergaming is to ask the player WHY their PC did something - if they can't come up with an answer, you don't give them any reward for it. If they want a +5 holy avenger, it's your choice as DM whether or not they can acquire one. If the fighter wants to suddenly take a level in monk, it's up to you whether you allow it and if learning those monk skills makes sense at that point in your campaign.

"Hey, I want Cheeto the Fighter to take his next level in monk."

"Interesting, Steve. Why would he do that?"

"Because I need the ki strike ability to qualify for the Cosmic Badass PrC!"

BZZZZT! DISALLOWED! Try again, Steve.

"Hey, I want Cheeto the Fighter to take his next level in monk."

"Interesting, Steve. Why would he do that?"

"Because he saw how much those gnoll monks kicked butt in combat despite being primitive screwheads, and he wants to try and learn that kind of discipline so he can kick butt better."

Okay, it's still the "because I want to kick more butt!" reason, but at least Steve's got an in-character rationale behind it.