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The Illusion of Powergaming

Reflections of Realms Fantastical

el-remmen said:
Do the player characters reflect their world, or does their world reflect the kinds of player characters there are?

Actually, if they are adventurers and reflect their world, they likely SHOULD be overinflated...

A typical D&D sleepy-town farming community in almost any setting you choose is exposed to humanoid invasions, the sudden inexplicable rising of the dead, wartorn episodes, ankhegs in the fields, hellish bovine, plagues, werecreature nesting, overflight by any number of seriously destructive creatures (imagine if planes started dropping bombs on our houses just for kicks, or as blackmail to promote our giving the crew some lovely cows in exchange for peace and quiet), not to mention the occasional mad wizard, his experiments run amok, or the miseries of psoriasis...

And that's just the first 5 to 10 levels... Munchkinism is ALMOST inherent to D&D...

How many hunters do you know who seek grizzly with a dagger to give the bear a fighting chance?
 

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Reynard said:
I agree ith you after a fashion. If the player desires to take a monk level because they want to qualify for a PrC, make their character more effective, etc... it is incumbant upon them to provide an in-character motivation to whatever extend is appropriate to the group and campaign. Of course, it is also the responsibility of the DM to provide opportunities to do so, if in-game actions or motivations are required.

A related issue is whether character classes are considered in-world social constructs of some sort, or merely collections of mechanical benefits to be interpreted however the player sees fit. I know some people that refuse to allow PCs to take levels in Barbarian or Sorcerer unless they do so at 1st level, because they consider those classes to be the result of background, and people that refuse to allow wizard levels without long periods of downtime because "magic takes a long time to learn". Often, it seems, these decisions are made as ways to reduce powergaming as well as ways to enforce versimilitude. To me, this is a cheap, heavy handed way to enforce either balance or setting coherence. It is better, I think, to roll with it and let the player's desires inform the world.


By definition, prestige classes are often supposed to be in-world constructs in some cases. For example, you can't be a Red Wizard of Thay (strictly as written) in an Eberron campaign. How did you get to Thay?

A lot of concern is also "When do you gain a level?" - In older systems, XP could be given out on the fly, sometimes during a combat. "You downed the owlbear! 600XP! Now the gnoll attacks!". That leads, IMO, to awkward situations that don't make sense in-game.

Gaining a level, to me, implies that you have achieved a level of worldly experience that allows you to expand your knowlege and horizons. Some in-game explanations:

BAB, skills and saves increase: As you've been fighting, you've been working on making your strikes more accurate, practicing over time that particular maneuver to get your axe around the enemy's defense. The moment you get the increase reflects the fact that this practice is now second nature. Skills are similar. If you're learning a totally new skill, you have to either have been using it untrained or have gone off during downtime to practice it. If you've been scaling Mount Doom for the entirety of 6th level, when you reach 7th you'd better have a darn good reason for becoming a better swimmer. Saves are like BAB - over time your reaction time improves, you become a little tougher, more resolute. Once you mechanically get the increase, it represents these improvements becoming instinctive.

Gaining feats and special abilities: I tend to think these take training, or some kind of in-game explanation. Simple things like Combat Expertise, Power Attack, and Cleave can be explained as "Hey, I've been trying this in combat and now I think I got the hang of it!". You just gained Extend Spell? Means you finally got the hang of altering your spell formula to make it last longer. Sure, it's harder to memorize (increased level) but you can do it now. Sneak attack damage goes up? "Hey, if I tilt my wrist like so, I can hit the kidney AND the artery in one shot!"

Gaining a level in a new class: If it's a class that someone in your party has? Maybe they've been teaching you some of the secrets. The monk teaches the fighter some of the secrets of meditation, unarmed combat, etc. The fighter teaches the rogue how to properly use a shield. Maybe it's active, maybe it's just by watching them. But gaining that level represents the point at which this learning becomes natural. Of course, if it's a level gained in an absolutely new class -- where did your PC learn this stuff?

This is why I tend to think the best time to hand out XP, especially if a party member is close to gaining a level, is only after an adventure is done and the party's at a resting point where they can logically regroup and refit themselves.


I think the mechanics should exist to serve character concept. It's like the old joke where the 2nd Ed. thief walks into the general store and asks "Do you have any items a thief can use?" When players are designing PCs in a game I run, I always get a concept from them before they start putting numbers down.

"I want to play a wandering swordsman type, not a big armor-wearing brawler, but the kind of guy who lives by his wits and solves problems with his brain before violence." goes a lot more towards telling me, the DM, what the player is interested in more so than "I want to play a rogue."
 

Aust Diamondew said:
Going the other way is potentially bad, that is coming up with the meachanics and only after doing so coming with a character if at all (by character I mean goals, back ground, personality, appearance etc). This is why PRCs (and some other mechanics to a lesser extent) can be bad as they encourage this approach.

I will second the disagreement with this statement. Figuring out where your character is now and then going back and figuring out where they have been is, in my experience, a great way to create a character. And a fully fleshed out character at that.

I will admit that how I usually come up with characters is by using a target PrC. That gives me a starting point if nothing else. Once I know where my character is at now I can figure out where my has been. Not only class wise but geographocally as well.

I'll use my current character as an example. About six months before our current campaign started I was speaking with my DM and the Heartwarder PrC came up. We joked around with various combinations of feats and abilities to use with a PrC that boosts your CHA five points over the course of ten levels (with full spellcasting progression and a few other fun, if somewhat minor, abilities). Over the course of a few days a joke character came into being. A Bard/Cleric of Sune with a CHA through the roof with the domains of Charm (to raise CHA even more) and Pleasure (so CHA can't be damaged or drained). Pure powergaming to the hilt. We had enough fun with this character concept that I said I just had to actually create this character.

Six months later, the new campaign begins at first level in the Forgotten Realms. I stat out my powergamed character concept. We looked at the maps of FR and where Sune is worshipped... she isn't a major player where the campaign is going to be taking place. I talk my my GM some more. The first session has the party traveling with a caravan with most of the PCs being guards. We decide that my character was actually one of the caravan members being guarded. Since the group had traveled out of the country I put skill points into Speak Languages and my backstory is that I was with the caravan as a translater for the full blown priest of Sune that was the head of the traveling group.

After the group did some random rolling on character background charts I filled in the details about relatives and what city I came from (which helped fill out a few more languages for my character sheet) and what his family life had been like.

This joke character has survived two years of gaming so far. The have been a few changes from what I expected him to be so he does have an organic build even with the PrC. He's the first character of any of our campaigns to hit epic levels. I think the entire table loves him - not for his stats (he isn't the combat monster of the group) but because of his character. There are more than a few stories of what he has done that will become classics with our group and he has pulled the collective party out of the fire on mulitple occations - both in combat and social situations. This charcater was built with PrC first and background second.
 

Jedi_Solo said:
I will second the disagreement with this statement. Figuring out where your character is now and then going back and figuring out where they have been is, in my experience, a great way to create a character.
...
This charcater was built with PrC first and background second.

You know, this is a perspective I didn't think about. Of course, it's a lot more applicable in campaigns where the PCs don't start off at low level, but if you're starting them off at 9th level - it might make a bit more sense. Player really really wants to play a Master Samurai, so they plan out exactly how they can stack their levels of monk and fighter and such to get the prereqs met, and THEN fit that into the background - that encourages roleplaying.

To me, "powergaming" is not always the same thing as "munchkinning". A munchkin doesn't even bother with background. A powergamer might select things in an extremely well-thought-out background with the end result of creating a total combat machine that can dice his way through anything. If that's the problem, you have a good player with a potentially disruptive playing style - a good DM can work with that by throwing him specifically into situations that challenge him. Give that powergaming PC a reputation, so that your wandering hobgoblins will have a 13th level blackguard with them who insists on challenging this Master Samurai, while the rest of the party has to deal with the gang on their own.
 

Let alone the difficulties...

...of having to DM for higher levels.

Due to reaching loftier levels far sooner than ever before, to resolve the "boredom with this character" or the "have a bookcase of rules I will never use" syndrome, the DM must adapt to a whole population of overly complex critters.

Unless you spend so much time on the game that it becomes second nature, it is a formidable challenge.

So player efforts to inflate their powers take a toll on the DM.

There is an easy, but hardly RAW solution: double or triple the opponents' hit points, and leave al lthe rest equal.
 

XO said:
...of having to DM for higher levels.

Due to reaching loftier levels far sooner than ever before, to resolve the "boredom with this character" or the "have a bookcase of rules I will never use" syndrome, the DM must adapt to a whole population of overly complex critters.

Unless you spend so much time on the game that it becomes second nature, it is a formidable challenge.

So player efforts to inflate their powers take a toll on the DM.

There is an easy, but hardly RAW solution: double or triple the opponents' hit points, and leave al lthe rest equal.

Yes, but that only solves a concern of DM's regarding their own ability to possibly keep up with a group of powergamers.

My main concern is intra-player expectations on the game, and the inability of some powergamers to realise that they are detracting from other people's fun.
 

green slime said:
I don't think it is regarded as "hosing players", rather, they find, for their game, that it provides more versimilitude. YMMV. If a DM places any kind of restriction on PC's his campaign, is it automatically hosing? Hosing implies that the game is somehow incomplete and less enjoyable.

IMO, causing someone to effectively lose a feat is hosing the players. If you make them take "martial weapon proficiency" before they can take a level of fighter, its basically screwing them out of a feat. So yes.

Same thing if you introduce a bunch of house rules stating you dont get HP when you level, brea all your items if you fail a reflex save, etc.

IMO, its a needless penalty. So to me, yes, taking away a feat for realism purposes (particularly in an unrealistic system like D&D) would make the game less enjoyable.
 
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ehren37 said:
IMO, causing someone to effectively lose a feat is hosing the players. If you make them take "martial weapon proficiency" before they can take a level of fighter, its basically screwing them out of a feat. So yes.

Same thing if you introduce a bunch of house rules stating you dont get HP when you level, brea all your items if you fail a reflex save, etc.

IMO, its a needless penalty. So to me, yes, taking away a feat for realism purposes (particularly in an unrealistic system like D&D) would make the game less enjoyable.

Well maybe they enjoy it, I can see why it may be cool to some who are trying to make things more logical, ie you can't just become a L1 Wizard without spending the effort/time/training (via a feat selection).
 

Flexor the Mighty! said:
Well maybe they enjoy it, I can see why it may be cool to some who are trying to make things more logical, ie you can't just become a L1 Wizard without spending the effort/time/training (via a feat selection).

Unfortunately, though, requiring prerequsities can have a detrimental effect on PC balance unless you offer up some extra benefits. Frex, if you decide a PC must have a certain number of ranks in Know:Arcana and Spellcraft to take a Wizard Level, maybe consider giving them the full value of the skill points spent, as a class skill, once they achieve Wiz1. Otherwise, the PC is always going to be behind the curve in relation to the other PCs.
 

Reynard said:
Otherwise, the PC is always going to be behind the curve in relation to the other PCs.

The thing is, this may be exactly the kind of "realism" the rule is intended to produce (i.e. - people who switch careers in the middle of their life have a lot of ground to make up). It's not my cup of tea, but I understand the motivation.
 

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