The Immortals Handbook

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya!

I think your conversion of 1e AD&D unique creatures to 3e by dividing hp by 4 to get hit dice makes a good rule of thumb, although dividing by 4.5 would also work.

There were a number of reasons for dividing by 4. Firstly, its simpler. Secondly, it fits perfect with the Immortals Handbook. Thirdly, it balances very well with the 3rd Ed. Outsiders.

Talking to Gary, he said just before he was ousted from TSR that he was planning a book which would have revised all the Demon/Devil stats. In many cases bringing beings like Orcus and Demogorgon (Lesser Gods in their own right) into line with other Deities.

As you note, in 3e though power is far more dependent on hit dice than in 1e where Orcus & Demogorgon could be rivals, so it doesn't always work.

Exactly. Lolth should have 66 HD in 3rd Edition (under my auspices).

By the way (for those keeping note - that conversion table is why Orcus has 45 Hit Dice in the Tome of Horrors)

Maybe 1e Demogorgon had a CON bonus...

It was a strength bonus he needed in 1st Ed.

I increasingly think the BoVD's approach of putting the demon-lords etc in the low-epic range was the right approach for 3e,

I didn't know you had that book?

The problem I have with the approach in the BoVD was the lack of structure. It simply doesn't take account of any hierarchy of the lower planes or the verisimilitude of demons/devils coexisting with deities.

whereas of course 3e Deities & Demigods did a horrible job of statting the gods.

Indeed, as I mentioned in my review the stats therein were pretty much pointless.

An alternative approach would be to take a more linear aproach to power-increase-by-hit-dice at Epic levels, which you have previously advocated, so Demogorgon could have 50 hit dice without being a Greater God or whatever.

It is so easy to do properly with the linear approach to Hit Dice. I treat Outsiders as spirits. Therefore they do not grow. But they do gain power (Highlander style) by destroying other Outsiders.

All power is relative remember, so its simple to equate this power with divinity.

Most of the abilities that go into making Demogorgon what he is would be absorbed by the Lesser Deity template.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Iceflame55 mate!

I've been bouncing in and out of here even if I wasn't posting U_K, but your review on Epic Handbook gave me an Idea on the Epic Attack Bonuses that I figured I'd post here (since it was your Review that got me to thinking of it). If this post starts enough discussion, I'll try and find the Epic forum and post a link here, to avoid messing your reports on how close immortals Handbook is to completion (which is also the only reason I think I haven't died of frustration I might add!)

I'm like you in I can see the way Epic Saves are done, especially when I examined the reasoning they added in a sidebar in DMG 3.5; but the rule on Attack Bonuses and the reasoning was weak I think. So, I decided to see the result of of simply capping the number of attacks possible to four, but kept the BAB going as before Epic !

To compare I'll post how it looks with the D&D Epic Attack Bonus on the left, the way I tried it on the right; I'm using Fighter as the character:

Level: D&D Epic_______My Idea
21st: 21/16/11/6_____21/16/11/6
22nd: 21/16/11/6_____22/17/12/7
23rd: 22/17/12/7_____23/18/13/8
24th: 22/17/12/7_____24/19/14/9
25th: 23/18/13/8_____25/20/15/10
26th: 23/18/13/8_____26/21/16/11
27th: 24/19/14/9_____27/22/17/12
28th: 24/19/14/9_____28/23/18/13
29th: 25/20/15/10____29/24/19/14
30th: 25/20/15/10____30/25/20/15

I'm not a player of D&D at the moment, due to my physical location, and not knowing how to drive limits mobility; but I've read the books forwards, backwards, upside down and inside out. It seems to me that my Idea works better than the Core ideas on Epic, at least as far as the attacks go. It wouldn't have been a stretch for them to simply to have said there was a cap on the number of attacks, and keep the attack progression the same, but I guess they decided there needed to be a strange unwieldy rule to make Epic level less appealing

I likely wouldn't have tinkered with this if I wasn't trying to avoid going insane waiting for IH, but there's my 2 cents at this time; comments, suggestions etc.?

Edit Note: I had a slight difficulty keeping the progressions seperate, and since this is the first time I've tried to show something resembling a table I didn't have any other Ideas on fixers

Thats pretty much how I would do it too.

Personally I don't like it that Dragons, Magical Beasts and Outsiders (etc.) have superior BAB/EAB to Fighters. It simply doesn't make any sense.

Either you have to restore the EAB progression (obviously still capping the number of attacks), or you have to apply the Epic ruling to all monsters with more than 20 Hit Dice.

 

[CRGreathouse]

However, if these Aspects are more powerful than Quasi-deities they cannot act freely on the mortal plane.

What does that mean?

 

[The Serge]

So, when can I join? I'm ready to add this to Dicefreaks' links as well. Are you comfortable with that, UK?

 

[historian]

Krust, I love the site -- I've always been a fan of your writing and your rpg theory. My preliminary assesment is 10/10.

I really like the movie reviews, and that you've "short-statted" the characters. I hope to see more of these.

Congratulations! I know the excitement associated with this is awesome. Looking forward to more.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

What does that mean?

It means that their are rules for divine intervention...of course rules inevitably get broken from time to time.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Serge mate!

Sorry I haven't been around Dicefreaks much lately, just been busy.

So, when can I join?

Well I don't have the message boards ready as yet. Maybe in a week or two.

I'm ready to add this to Dicefreaks' links as well. Are you comfortable with that, UK?

Sure, fire away. I already have Dicefreaks on my links page (although I haven't uploaded my links page yet because I am still adding some interesting occult links), and I want to make some comments on every site, so that they are not simply 'another link'.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi historian mate !

Krust, I love the site -- I've always been a fan of your writing and your rpg theory. My preliminary assesment is 10/10.

Well I don't know about 10/10, its still early days, and I don't even have all the links up yet.

I really like the movie reviews, and that you've "short-statted" the characters. I hope to see more of these.

Well I am going to do that with every review, I have a further six reviews (3 rpgs/3 movies) that are about half finished. I'll probably add one of each every week.

At a later date I may flesh out those 'short stats' but it wouldn't be prudent at the moment.

By the way the pictures on the Legend of Zu review are now working! I'll add the pictures for Zu: Warriors of the Magic Mountain, over the weekend. I don't have tv-out here so I am getting a loan of the dvd from a friend, I only have the vhs for Zu: Warriors myself.

Congratulations! I know the excitement associated with this is awesome. Looking forward to more.

I am pretty excited myself. Sort of wishing I'd had the website up sooner now.

 

[S'mon]

Hey S'mon!
Can you be more specific?

Well, my general impression is that the often-arbitrary lethality of 3e combat at higher levels encourages interminable pre-combat planning (like Thrin on a very bad day) and the miniatures-based game discourages "Druaga appears with 20 Pit Fiends" - no normal person has 20 Pit Fiend minis, and even putting 20 Huge markers on the battleboard will cause huge problems as they take up all the space!

 

[S'mon]

I didn't know you had that book?

The problem I have with the approach in the BoVD was the lack of structure. It simply doesn't take account of any hierarchy of the lower planes or the verisimilitude of demons/devils coexisting with deities.

No, I don't have BOVD, I just looked at your copy. I don't intend to get it either, I'll likely convert my 1e books myself if I ever need them. I agree re lack of structure, and of course Graz'zt got the shaft _and_ a silly pic!