The Immortals Handbook

[Upper_Krust]

Hey S'mon!

Well, my general impression is that the often-arbitrary lethality of 3e combat at higher levels encourages interminable pre-combat planning (like Thrin on a very bad day)

Re Thrin: After a while I was able to boil everything down to the point where I would just say "All magical defenses raised" and then wade in, saving time.

Although 3rd Edition is somewhat more buff-tastic. However, most deities have these buffs built in as standard, so its less likely to get in the way.

and the miniatures-based game discourages "Druaga appears with 20 Pit Fiends" - no normal person has 20 Pit Fiend minis, and even putting 20 Huge markers on the battleboard will cause huge problems as they take up all the space!

It seems to me as though a lot of this is down to whether or not you play with or without attacks of opportunity. What do you think?

No, I don't have BOVD, I just looked at your copy.

Oh thats right, forgot I had showed it to you.

I don't intend to get it either,

Its not a bad book, I'd probably give it a 5 or 6/10.

I'll likely convert my 1e books myself if I ever need them.

Well remember to use my conversion table as a basis.

'Standard' Graz'zt (Lesser Deity) would have 46 Hit Dice. He would have integrated spellcasting of a 23rd-level Sorceror, although his innate spell-like abilities would at 46th-level.

'Your' Intermediate Deity - Demon Emperor version of Graz'zt would have 69 Hit Dice and integrated spellcasting of a 34th-level Sorceror, innate spell-like abilities would be at 69th-level.

I agree re lack of structure, and of course Graz'zt got the shaft _and_ a silly pic!

Indeed, Orcus has seemingly stole the limelight a lot recently. Graz'zt and Demogorgon were badly handled (and badly illustrated)

 

[historian]

Howdy Krust!

'Your' Intermediate Deity - Demon Emperor version of Graz'zt would have 69 Hit Dice and integrated spellcasting of a 34th-level Sorceror, innate spell-like abilities would be at 69th-level.

Sounds nasty -- very, very strong.

Indeed, Orcus has seemingly stole the limelight a lot recently. Graz'zt and Demogorgon were badly handled (and badly illustrated)

I had always been ubder the impression that Demogorgon was stronger than Orcus by about another 1/3rd.

Wasn't Orcus whacked by an intermediate deity (Kiaransalee)? I guess his incarnation as Tenebrous was nasty though.

BTW -- I loved seeing the Supernal and the Akashic Record as part of the divinity scale. I'm putting the over/under for the ARs in the EL 325 range.

 

[S'mon]

>>Re Thrin: After a while I was able to boil everything down to the point where I would just say "All magical defenses raised" and then wade in, saving time.<<

Yes, I'm not sure why my Wizard player(s) need to spend 2+ hours of game time (out of the 5 hours we get every 2 weeks!) on selecting spells pre-battle... Being my game, things invariably go wrong anyway and the prep is likely as not to be wasted.

>>Although 3rd Edition is somewhat more buff-tastic. <<

Yup - 3.0 was nightmarish, with the 1d4+1 buffs.

>>It seems to me as though a lot of this is down to whether or not you play with or without attacks of opportunity. What do you think?<<

Well, I've always played 3e with the Attacks of Opportunity rules, they make large creatures far more powerful. Yes, they encourage a tactical approach to play. Not many people ignore the AoO rules, do they? That would negate a lot of Feats and affect large-creature CRs significantly.

>>'Your' Intermediate Deity - Demon Emperor version of Graz'zt would have 69 Hit Dice and integrated spellcasting of a 34th-level Sorceror, innate spell-like abilities would be at 69th-level.<<

69 sounds right for Graz'zt.

 

[S'mon]

I can see a good case for an Immortals ability that made you immune to AoOs... Infinite Tumble?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Krust!

Hiya historian mate!

Sounds nasty -- very, very strong.

Well in S'mons campaign Graz'zt conquered the Abyss (and as such became a Greater Power*). Graz'zt defeated Orcus, I think he also defeated Zuggtmoy. One of Graz'zt's Champions defeated Lolth. Demogorgon fled the Abyss to live in Pandemonium.

I remember S'mon having lots of fun boosting the stats for all the Graz'zt faction Demons like Yeenoghu and Kostchtchie, who all became more powerful.

*Though technically now he would be an Intermediate Power.

I had always been ubder the impression that Demogorgon was stronger than Orcus by about another 1/3rd.

That was only with regards hit points, in terms of overall power they were always supposed to be fairly even.

Wasn't Orcus whacked by an intermediate deity (Kiaransalee)?

Drow Demi-deity as I recall. However, I take all that 2nd Edition stuff very lightly indeed.

I guess his incarnation as Tenebrous was nasty though.

He seems to be the same, but for the temporary use of the Last Word.

BTW -- I loved seeing the Supernal and the Akashic Record as part of the divinity scale.

I was torn between making the more powerful eternals called the Supreme Lords of Life, but it seemed to clash with the Supernals somewhat.

I'm putting the over/under for the ARs in the EL 325 range.

You've lost me?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey S'mon!

>>Re Thrin: After a while I was able to boil everything down to the point where I would just say "All magical defenses raised" and then wade in, saving time.<<

Yes, I'm not sure why my Wizard player(s) need to spend 2+ hours of game time (out of the 5 hours we get every 2 weeks!) on selecting spells pre-battle... Being my game, things invariably go wrong anyway and the prep is likely as not to be wasted.

Yes I remember your players making a complete mess of the Overking assassination attempt because of stalling and prep.

Personally I don't see how they need 2 hours either? I mean, don't get me wrong, I did love to have a plan of attack, but thats just ridiculous.

>>Although 3rd Edition is somewhat more buff-tastic. <<

Yup - 3.0 was nightmarish, with the 1d4+1 buffs.

Especially with all the spellcasters and cohorts in your group.

>>It seems to me as though a lot of this is down to whether or not you play with or without attacks of opportunity. What do you think?<<

Well, I've always played 3e with the Attacks of Opportunity rules, they make large creatures far more powerful. Yes, they encourage a tactical approach to play. Not many people ignore the AoO rules, do they? That would negate a lot of Feats and affect large-creature CRs significantly.

I think if you are happy enough to use them then I don't see them becoming any more of a problem at epic/immortal levels than they are at any other?

>>'Your' Intermediate Deity - Demon Emperor version of Graz'zt would have 69 Hit Dice and integrated spellcasting of a 34th-level Sorceror, innate spell-like abilities would be at 69th-level.<<

69 sounds right for Graz'zt.

The old jokes are the best aren't they!

I can see a good case for an Immortals ability that made you immune to AoOs... Infinite Tumble?

I'll think about it.

 

[historian]

Howdy Krust!

Well in S'mons campaign Graz'zt conquered the Abyss (and as such became a Greater Power*). Graz'zt defeated Orcus, I think he also defeated Zuggtmoy. One of Graz'zt's Champions defeated Lolth. Demogorgon fled the Abyss to live in Pandemonium.

I remember S'mon having lots of fun boosting the stats for all the Graz'zt faction Demons like Yeenoghu and Kostchtchie, who all became more powerful.

*Though technically now he would be an Intermediate Power.

Sweet, evil vs. evil is a nice backdrop.

You've lost me?

My bad, I was referring to the Akashic Records as being most likely in the EL 325 range (at least I think that's what 8E24 CR yields).

 

[CRGreathouse]

I feel the need, oddly enough, to critique your rant on stats for gods.

First, let me summarize your argument (using your argument numbers):

1. (Gods don't need stats) This is an opinion, not a fact; mythology and fiction show non-all-powerful gods.
2.1 (Gods are all-powerful) Illogical, since multiple gods can't all have infinite power; they're irrelevant to RPGs; mythology (see above)
2.2 (Mortals can't hurt gods) Shades of gray, no black and white
3. (Gods are uber-powerful) Mythology (see above) vs fiction; mortal threat
4. (Offensive) Double standard; irrelevant to all but Hindus
5. (Gods = Monsters) DM choice

The problem I see is that your rant counters most arguments by assertion, much as you disapprove of assertion in #1.

The tone is very argumentitive -- 2.1 alone describes the argument as "illogical" and "ignorant", and the arguer as "foolish". Elsewhere, the arguments are "ridiculous", "blatantly false"; the person becomes "clueless" and guilty of "scaremongering".

The high school debate terminiology ("appeal to authority" and "protagonist" are both used at least twice) adds to the oppressive feel of the document.


What I would like to see:
* A list of examples of mortals competing with, besting, or killing gods in various mythologies
* Your experiences with immortal gaming, and why the mortal threat is "the greatest aspect of immortal adventuring" (asserted twice, never explained)
* Your experiences with immortal gaming, and how gods have been more than 'just monsters'.
* Perhaps even reasons (campaign-building, etc.) that stats for gods could be useful even for groups not high enough in level to directly interact with the gods

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Krust!

Hiya mate!

Sweet, evil vs. evil is a nice backdrop.

Yep. I think the Gord the Rogue books were the catalyst for all that.

My bad, I was referring to the Akashic Records as being most likely in the EL 325 range (at least I think that's what 8E24 CR yields).

No, the Akashic Records are infinite and always were. The Supernals were some ridiculous CR but I think even that was redundant.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya CRGreathouse mate!

I feel the need, oddly enough, to critique your rant on stats for gods.

Fire away, I must be honest I wasn't totally happy with the article myself, I sort of rushed at it more than I usually do and I posted it up without being satisfied with it.

First, let me summarize your argument (using your argument numbers):

1. (Gods don't need stats) This is an opinion, not a fact; mythology and fiction show non-all-powerful gods.
2.1 (Gods are all-powerful) Illogical, since multiple gods can't all have infinite power; they're irrelevant to RPGs; mythology (see above)
2.2 (Mortals can't hurt gods) Shades of gray, no black and white
3. (Gods are uber-powerful) Mythology (see above) vs fiction; mortal threat
4. (Offensive) Double standard; irrelevant to all but Hindus
5. (Gods = Monsters) DM choice

Okay.

The problem I see is that your rant counters most arguments by assertion, much as you disapprove of assertion in #1.

Unlike those arguments I don't take the choice away the DM/Player though.

The tone is very argumentitive -- 2.1 alone describes the argument as "illogical" and "ignorant", and the arguer as "foolish". Elsewhere, the arguments are "ridiculous", "blatantly false"; the person becomes "clueless" and guilty of "scaremongering".

I was partly 'stirring the pot' to facilitate discussion. Though I probably should have included those (above) points as reflective questions.

The high school debate terminiology ("appeal to authority" and "protagonist" are both used at least twice) adds to the oppressive feel of the document.

I have read quite a few negative threads started just for the purpose of stating we shouldn't have stats for gods, so the oppression wasn't faked.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=249635

What I would like to see:
* A list of examples of mortals competing with, besting, or killing gods in various mythologies
* Your experiences with immortal gaming, and why the mortal threat is "the greatest aspect of immortal adventuring" (asserted twice, never explained)
* Your experiences with immortal gaming, and how gods have been more than 'just monsters'.
* Perhaps even reasons (campaign-building, etc.) that stats for gods could be useful even for groups not high enough in level to directly interact with the gods

I was planning to include discourse on those points (as well as on Overgods), however time constraints swayed me. I will tweak the article at the weekend though, thanks for the feedback mate.