The Importance of Randomness

[Hassassin]

I do agree with you regarding Random Monster Tables in the DMG/MM. I don't want these either. I have not used them since I started creating my own games around 20 years ago. However, I certainly create random Encounter Charts (discussed above) for each area of my own campaigns and believe advice on how to do so creatively would be great.

I agree that at least the 3e random encounter tables are all but useless.

Instead, I would like to have tables for environment types, where all appropriate monsters would be weighted by rarity. You could use this to populate areas and generate your own encounter tables. If it's also sorted by level, you could easily limit yourself to a part of it.

For example, imagine you have a temperate highland to populate and you decide to place three main communities there. You roll elves (gray), orcs and griffons. The elves obviously have an alliance with the griffons to defend against the orcs' slaver raids and egg-stealers. Then you can just add some appropriate animals and maybe roll a rare monster or two to add to the tables.

 

[Mattachine]

Instead, I would like to have tables for environment types, where all appropriate monsters would be weighted by rarity. You could use this to populate areas and generate your own encounter tables. If it's also sorted by level, you could easily limit yourself to a part of it.

First edition had these tables, by the way. The wilderness tables were only sorted by terrain, but the dungeon tables were sorted by monster level.


Again, some random tables, especially good example tables (that are useful to many players, such as dungeon encounters and a couple wilderness ones), PLUS an explanation of how, when, and why to use them, would be great. Options combined with guidance would be a win for those that like random encounters, those that want to experiment with them, and something easy to leave out for those us that don't like them.

 

[JonWake]

Thank you for pointing out another benefit to randomization: avoidance of cliche.

Here's the thing:storytelling, in the best of circumstances, is hard. It's really, really hard. Dodging cliches is a full-time occupation for professional writers, and lets face it, most of them aren't that good at it. If you don't have the time to mine your stories into the dirt, they will be filled with cliches. It's not a shameful thing, it's just human nature. We're inveterate memetic recyclers.

And avoiding a cliche in an RPG? Effectively impossible. In fact, you probably shouldn't try, because no matter how much work you put into a world or a storyline, the players are going to be recycling all the plots they've read for the past thirty some odd years. And that's if they're not just recycling D&D tropes, which are cliches of cliches. D&D is a photocopy of a photocopy at this point. We're the Andy Warhol of fantasy fiction. (I guess a D&D game could be considered the original democratic mash-up. We're the vaccuum tube of remix culture.)

So the chances are, you're relying on cliches. As that there's no such thing a a full-time DM, we pretty much have to. It's not a big deal, but we have to acknowledge it.

However, using a good element of randomization can circumvent this to a degree. Randomly creating an organization can lead to one that looks unlike anything you'd think of normally, likewise with encounters or character reactions.

Naturally, we're still filtering a random chart through our expectations and are free to ignore any ludicrous response, but think of randomization as the seed value for your internal storytelling program.

 

[Dannager]

@Dannager

It is clear YOU like to choose what does and does not go into your game. That is great. You sound like a very creative person with very strong ideas, but you do not seem to be getting what we are referring to in regards to our use of charts, randomness etc. And yes you have kind of ignored a lot of points made (especially examples) to criticise our way of DMing,

If you feel I've ignored what you've said, please point out what I've ignored. I don't recall purposefully skipping over posts, and it's possible that some have gotten lost in the seven pages of this thread.

and that quote regarding the "I rolled a 93", was so off the mark.

That was a response to people who were saying things like, "I want to be surprised by the result of a random encounter roll." So, no. Not off the mark.

I have tried to put my ways/thoughts into words earlier, so i won't repeat.

I do agree with you regarding Random Monster Tables in the DMG/MM. I don't want these either. I have not used them since I started creating my own games around 20 years ago. However, I certainly create random Encounter Charts (discussed above) for each area of my own campaigns and believe advice on how to do so creatively would be great.

I too would love advice on traps, hazards, events, etc...and then I will put them into a table myself and roll random ones anyway EG. Forest Random Encounter chart will include options for relevant hazards, the odd trap, strange occurrence, local fauna, and some monsters.

That would be great advice, but still not something I'd want to see in random tables.

However, i am in favour of other random charts: Businesses, NPC Traits, Plot Twists, Rewards, Tavern Activities, Games, Dungeon Dressing, Odd Places, etc. But again, if they don't make it into 5E I will go on using the ones I already have adding in more options and references from the 5E books anyway.

Let me be clear: I'm okay with random tables, insofar as they are presented and used as a convenient tool to assist DMs who are forced to come up with something on the fly, or who do not have the luxury of adequate prep time and don't (for whatever reason) want to use published adventures.

It's the insistence that random encounter tables can generate a play experience for your typical group that is as compelling as a DM handcrafting the encounters can be that I'm arguing against.

 

[Dannager]

Definitely. But I think you may be overestimating the actual ability of a DM to make the game more enjoyable by crafting a good story arc. Are you sure that the average good DM can write stories with a bunch of predermined points that aren't effectively all just rehashes of what we've seen in thousands of movies and books? Randomizing some of those otherwise predetermined points is what can make a story more original that DM-Joe might have come up with. We're not all Stephen Kings... The balance between predictability and unpredictability of the story and its effect on enjoying the game can change a lot from group to group of course.

First, we're talking encounters, not overarching story. I know that one can often have an impact on the other, and that encounters can sometimes have strong story elements themselves. But if you're trying to tell me that resorting to what is essentially D&D Encounter Mad Libs for your story is superior to even some really basic storytelling on the DM's part, I'm going to disagree. Honestly, it doesn't take a lot of excellent story to string a group of D&D players along. I know that, when I play, I'm not expecting an Oscar-worthy screenplay. If the story elements are thinly disguised tropes (and, really, they all are, always), it's not a big deal because it's still a story that I am a part of. The role of storyteller is part of the DM's arsenal of hats. It's a skill to work at, and the only way to get better at coming up with stories on your own is to keep coming up with stories on your own.

 

[Tortoise]

Your opinion on how you prefer to play is not a problem. It has been noted in the thread that all ways are equally valid for the groups that choose to use them. So good for you, just please stop inferring that people that choose to make use of random encounters in addition to their other tools are playing wrong. It was that recurring inference that led to me, as you say, "playing the troll card"

Something I consider good is that once you felt the sting of it and got aggravated, you finally mentioned what you were trying to say to begin with which is that you don't want pages of the 5e rulebooks wasted by a bunch of charts and tables you won't see a need to use. That is a valid opinion and had that been clear to start with instead of the inferences that people were wrong, I would not have gotten the impression you were trolling.

Knowing now what your real point is, let's put our best feet forward and look at how everyone may see what they want in the upcoming books. Providing the conversation can go on without inference that other's ways of DMing are somehow wrong, I will on that condition withdraw my accusation of trolling.

It is unfortunate things got to where they are. Let's hope it goes better from here.

And so . . .

The 5e books are an opportunity to really teach a lot of new potential players and especially DMs how to run and play a great game. That assumes of course the designers with the help of the palyer/DM base manages to get it right. It is too early to tell.

What does this have to do with randomness? It is very likely that the Dungeon Masters Guide and Monster Manual will contain some random tables. More importantly the DMs Guide should provide clear examples and ideas for using the tools (random and non-random) showcased in it effectively should someone want them. Likewise the Monster Manual is the book that traditionally had both random encounter and treasure tables. How can that be kept trimmed and not overwhelm the page count? By following the example of the 1st edition MM2 which on page 139 had an example of one style of random table and instructions on how to build your own tables in that and other formats, followed by a few pages listing all of the monsters by level and rarity. That would include the needed materials for those that like to use them without occupying too much of the books for those that don't.

As a side note, while I like random encounters they are not the entirety of my campaign. I use modules, bits and pieces of other works, and things I create. The random tables are just a part of what I use. Depending on the campaign I am running at any given time random tables will be either more or less often used.

I do however like the way random tables can make me as a DM stretch my skills and because of that I do not find them boring. Apparently neither do my players. Other's mileage may vary.

 

[Dannager]

The 5e books are an opportunity to really teach a lot of new potential players and especially DMs how to run and play a great game. That assumes of course the designers with the help of the palyer/DM base manages to get it right. It is too early to tell.

What does this have to do with randomness? It is very likely that the Dungeon Masters Guide and Monster Manual will contain some random tables. More importantly the DMs Guide should provide clear examples and ideas for using the tools (random and non-random) showcased in it effectively should someone want them. Likewise the Monster Manual is the book that traditionally had both random encounter and treasure tables. How can that be kept trimmed and not overwhelm the page count? By following the example of the 1st edition MM2 which on page 139 had an example of one style of random table and instructions on how to build your own tables in that and other formats, followed by a few pages listing all of the monsters by level and rarity. That would include the needed materials for those that like to use them without occupying too much of the books for those that don't.

As a side note, while I like random encounters they are not the entirety of my campaign. I use modules, bits and pieces of other works, and things I create. The random tables are just a part of what I use. Depending on the campaign I am running at any given time random tables will be either more or less often used.

I do however like the way random tables can make me as a DM stretch my skills and because of that I do not find them boring. Apparently neither do my players. Other's mileage may vary.

As I mentioned earlier, I feel an online tool might be the best place for random encounter tables (and, indeed, other random elements as well) to reside. Imagine being able to select a set of criteria that describe the environment you're going for (as well as the level range, if you'd prefer) and having it spit back a functional encounter at you. Far more utility than anything short of an entire book made of nothing but encounter tables, available everywhere, and without taking up valuable page real estate on what is essentially something that can be hidden in code. It would also lend itself very easily to a mobile device app. And, finally (and in my eyes, best of all), the random encounter tool could actually be updated with each new game element released! Random encounter tables in the Monster Manual are great, until the Monster Manual 2 is released and you realize that unless you somehow merge the two random encounter tables (or the Monster Manual 2 and all other post-MM1 supplements include extra tables for determining which book's encounter tables to roll on) you will only ever end up with random encounters from a single book. If you throw that all into code with random encounter tables that populate themselves with a custom mix of monsters/encounters based on the user's list of criteria, you never have to worry about that again.

 

[Tortoise]

As I mentioned earlier, I feel an online tool might be the best place for random encounter tables (and, indeed, other random elements as well) to reside. Imagine being able to select a set of criteria that describe the environment you're going for (as well as the level range, if you'd prefer) and having it spit back a functional encounter at you. Far more utility than anything short of an entire book made of nothing but encounter tables, available everywhere, and without taking up valuable page real estate on what is essentially something that can be hidden in code. It would also lend itself very easily to a mobile device app. And, finally (and in my eyes, best of all), the random encounter tool could actually be updated with each new game element released! Random encounter tables in the Monster Manual are great, until the Monster Manual 2 is released and you realize that unless you somehow merge the two random encounter tables (or the Monster Manual 2 and all other post-MM1 supplements include extra tables for determining which book's encounter tables to roll on) you will only ever end up with random encounters from a single book. If you throw that all into code with random encounter tables that populate themselves with a custom mix of monsters/encounters based on the user's list of criteria, you never have to worry about that again.

While I still feel some of it needs to be in the books for the reasons I mentioned before, especially for helping new DMs, I'm absolutely with you on the idea of having digital tools and even phone apps to support the depth of it. Something that would be important to have in the online tool would be a way to enter some additional home brewed creature names to include in the list you are going to generate. Nothing more would be needed since presumably the DM already has the stats for their home brewed monster. It would also be nice because that would allow events to be in the list as well as monsters.

Good idea with the online tools. I suspect you are on target for something Wizards might do when the game launches. At least we can keep our fingers crossed.

 

[Connorsrpg]

I still dislike the whole 'crafting' encounters from own ideas is a better play experience than determining a lot of things randomly and then using your creativity? It might be better for you. As I have said, it doesn't suit our play style at all. We expect to meet new things the DM had not already planned. I love to use tables for idea generators and planning.

I have run the whole central, chase across a country part of a campaign just on linking many random rolls to develop both Set encounters and Random encounters, AND to this day the players loved that part.

3 giant frogs taking over a mill pond had nothing to do with central plot, but it was a very memorable encounter and one I certainly would not have come up with 'on my own'. Many other encounters rolled were tied to the plot and had clues as to the passing of the necro the PCs were pursuing.

This is a legitimate play style that is every part as valuable as planned encounters...and in our game preferable. I will not concede this point. If you are referring to a better game in terms of balance, then I agree with you totally. The way I use them can completely upset balance. MANY/most encounters I design this way are NOT balanced with a certain level party in any way. If these creatures live in the woods, then you CAN encounter them. This is what made a pesky, single snake encounter memorable. As did encountering lots of frogs in a particular forest. It added to the 'feel' of the game, but they were certainly not better balanced encounters, and we like it that way.

In a 5E book, I would like advice on HOW this can be done. I am comfortable with it, but other less experienced members in my group always ask about the creation charts I have. I am sure it would be a great way to encourage new (and experienced) DMs to get those creative juices flowing if they don't have those ideas, or they just plain WANT to do things this way.

 

[Mattachine]

How can that be kept trimmed and not overwhelm the page count? By following the example of the 1st edition MM2 which on page 139 had an example of one style of random table and instructions on how to build your own tables in that and other formats, followed by a few pages listing all of the monsters by level and rarity. That would include the needed materials for those that like to use them without occupying too much of the books for those that don't.

I loved that part of the AD&D MM2. I used it a lot back in the day.

And that is exactly what I meant: provide the option for random tables, provide guidance for making them, and advice on using them (if at all).


As to the folks arguing about whether random encounters are good or bad gaming . . . Really? Arguing over which type of gaming is better? Or which type of gaming is really D&D?

Really?