D&D General The Importance of Verisimilitude (or "Why you don't need realism to keep it real")

[EzekielRaiden]

But it's also because I've been playing D&D pretty much from the beginning and fighters, for example, outside of 4E (which was why many people had an issue with it) have never been more supernatural than an action movie hero.

Their ability to take multiple times over the damage that a warhorse could take and still survive was literally cited by Gary Gygax as one of the reasons they do become superhuman.

Also, y'know, back when levels had names, there was a level called "Superhero."

It was level 8.

Can we please, please not turn this into yet another argument about fighters?

I mean, you kind of already did in the thing I quoted above.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Trying to make the fighter a balanced archetype requires not only taking on "classes should be balanced" and "magic should do less than it does now" but also "fighters shouldn't be the 'normal' class" as premises you have to get everyone on board with.

Certainly not.

"Normal" does not mean in D&D what it means on Earth. That's why you can have bus-sized flying lizards with fiery halitosis, amongst many, many other outright, blatant violations of what is physically possible on Earth.

The "elemental" halitosis is magic. Being a flying, bus-sized lizard that doesn't instantly die due to the square-cube law is not. It's literally just a world where stuff is, as the kids say, "built different."

 

[Lord Shark]

I think part of this is because my ideas of what a fantasy world along the lines of D&D are grounded in is twofold. First, it's in the fantasy books I read. Yes, Fafhrd once chopped the head of a great worm, but he didn't leap tall buildings in a single bound. But it's also because I've been playing D&D pretty much from the beginning and fighters, for example, outside of 4E (which was why many people had an issue with it) have never been more supernatural than an action movie hero. I don't have a problem with anime or wire-fu now and then even if I'm not a huge fan, but if I wanted to play that kind of game, I'd find something other than D&D.

Like when Fafhrd swims up a cloud bank to reach a flying ship in "The Mouser Goes Below"? Or his rocket-powered ski jump in "The Snow Women"? Or the running fight with assassins while sliding at high speed down the face of a glacier in "The Seven Black Priests"?

Swords and sorcery characters were doing amazing, unrealistic stuff long before anime was ever a thing.

 

[Oofta]

Their ability to take multiple times over the damage that a warhorse could take and still survive was literally cited by Gary Gygax as one of the reasons they do become superhuman.

Also, y'know, back when levels had names, there was a level called "Superhero."

It was level 8.

First, there's no assumption that lost HP is the same as lasting physical damage. Second, all PCs in D&D are action movie heroes. Being able to take a licking and keep on ticking just gives them all John McClane resilience. Besides, I never said I wanted the game to be completely realistic.

I mean, you kind of already did in the thing I quoted above.

You weren't quoting me, I've been busy and haven't posted much of anything on this thread.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Trying to make the fighter a balanced archetype requires not only taking on "classes should be balanced" and "magic should do less than it does now" but also "fighters shouldn't be the 'normal' class" as premises you have to get everyone on board with.

I mean, that classes should be balanced should be non-controversial. Balancing choices in a cooperative game gives players a chance to make appealing choices without hurting the collective effort towards beating the game. RL is neither fair nor balanced, games should be.

Having a normal class with grounded RL restrictions on what it can do is fine. If the other classes are balanced with it. There's nothing about representing a class as supernatural that requires it to be powerful. Create Water is supernatural, for instance. It's not exactly OP.

By the same token, the need to boost a non-supernatural class to extraordinary or superhuman levels only becomes necessary if there's a desire to make supernatural classes similarly powerful.

Now, TBF, genre strongly supports very limited magic that is slaved to the plot, and extraordinary heroes who don't directly tap such magic. It's just dramatic. Waving your hand and solving all the problems doesn't make for a great, heroic, story.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

First, there's no assumption that lost HP is the same as lasting physical damage. Second, all PCs in D&D are action movie heroes. Being able to take a licking and keep on ticking just gives them all John McClane resilience. Besides, I never said I wanted the game to be completely realistic.

Okay. Where do we draw the line, then? Why does it need to default only to the most restrictive position possible?

You weren't quoting me, I've been busy and haven't posted much of anything on this thread.

Uh...okay. I guess my eyes deceived me when I read...

But it's also because I've been playing D&D pretty much from the beginning and fighters, for example, outside of 4E (which was why many people had an issue with it) have never been more supernatural than an action movie hero.

Emphasis added, naturally.

 

[Oofta]

Like when Fafhrd swims up a cloud bank to reach a flying ship in "The Mouser Goes Below"? Or his rocket-powered ski jump in "The Snow Women"? Or the running fight with assassins while sliding at high speed down the face of a glacier in "The Seven Black Priests"?

Swords and sorcery characters were doing amazing, unrealistic stuff long before anime was ever a thing.

While I don't remember The Mouser Goes Below, have you ever seen a James Bond movie? Rocket powered ski jump? It's probably happened. Running fight with assassins while sliding at high speed down the face of a glacier? Sounds about right.

If that's not the right set of books to reference, then Tolkien, Piers Anthony or Terry Brooks. There are dozens of novels that center around "mere" mortals, sometimes with magic items, sometimes with spells, frequently just with weapons at hand that overcome great obstacles.

 

[Umbran]

Biased, more specifically, in D&D towards casters and against martials.

Mod note:
Please stay on topic. There are several independent discussions on casters & martial characters, and you can make more, such that there is no call for this.

Let people have discussions about other topics without this intruding upon it. Thanks.

 

[Alzrius]

I mean, that classes should be balanced should be non-controversial. Balancing choices in a cooperative game gives players a chance to make appealing choices without hurting the collective effort towards beating the game. RL is neither fair nor balanced, games should be.

Which gets back into the issue of terminology, as defining "balance" has itself been the subject of many posts, threads, books, blogs, videos, podcasts, and virtually every other form of media. And yet we still can't settle on a consensus definition, let alone agree as to its implementation.

 

[Oofta]

Okay. Where do we draw the line, then? Why does it need to default only to the most restrictive position possible?


Uh...okay. I guess my eyes deceived me when I read...

Emphasis added, naturally.

I'm not discussing your perceived issues with fighters on this thread. Post it on one of the many other threads so I can ignore it ... or just accept I'm not going down this pointless road yet again.