The issue with wizards and sorcerers

[Alexanderone]

Firstly this isn't an attempt to start a flame war but wizards seem very hyped compared to their in game performance i've never struggled dealing with wizards, clerics or sorcerers as a ranger, fighter or paladin using the right combination of combat tactics, weapons and feats but on the boards people seem to think they're somewhat godlike.
can anyone offer an explanation of this.

 

[Theroc]

Wizard can get Fly and Save or Die spells whether they get shiny gear or not. Fighters and the like don't.

I can't really give specific scenarios since I am not sure what exactly you're asking about. Why is a wizard stronger? Their spells simply invalidate almost any ability another class has. Need a brute? Polymorph. Need a door opened? Knock! etc...

 

[Alexanderone]

I appreciate that but especially later in the game the save or die isn't so usfull with monsters high saving throws and a wizard can't turn into anything as powerful as a fighter or barbarian. utility i see entirly as the parties tool box but in combat i've never seen wizards achive much. Are dm is very tactical though and makes use of buffs and dispels and the mage hunter feats so maybe thats why i've never seen them preform to well.

 

[Dandu]

Run a game with me in it, and you'll find out. I've got a level 13 core sorcerer kitted out and ready to roll if you're interestested.

 

[Theroc]

I appreciate that but especially later in the game the save or die isn't so usfull with monsters high saving throws and a wizard can't turn into anything as powerful as a fighter or barbarian. utility i see entirly as the parties tool box but in combat i've never seen wizards achive much. Are dm is very tactical though and makes use of buffs and dispels and the mage hunter feats so maybe thats why i've never seen them preform to well.

I wouldn't know how to explain it to you. The best thing I could suggest... is arrange an 'encounter' between a 'typical' group your DM sends at your party, and pit them against Dandu's party of Sorcerwizards.

 

[Starbuck_II]

I appreciate that but especially later in the game the save or die isn't so usfull with monsters high saving throws and a wizard can't turn into anything as powerful as a fighter or barbarian. utility i see entirly as the parties tool box but in combat i've never seen wizards achive much. Are dm is very tactical though and makes use of buffs and dispels and the mage hunter feats so maybe thats why i've never seen them preform to well.

2 points:
1) Why aren't you first lowering their saves?
2) why bother with saves?

Point 1: enervation, fear effects, etc lower saves so they have a lower saving throw.
Heck, Negative levels (enervation) can kill with no save so use more of them.


Stuff like Grease still deprives you if Dex even if save (unless 5 ranks of Balance). Now this won't kill but if you have sneak attack/party with sneak attack: free for all (Those d6's add up).

 

[Alexanderone]

i'm happy to accept what your saying. Nice character by the way dadu. I was just asking becuse i've never seen it happen and wanted to check.
Thanks guys

 

[Dandu]

(Note: The sorcerer build I had up earlier placed Planar Binding in the wrong place. Correcting that means I had to shift a few spells around. It got more powerful.)

Long story short, a properly optimized wizard compared to, say, melee classes goes something like...


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw[/ame]


Again, if you want to see how a martial "caster killer" party would work against it, feel free to roll up some dudes.

 

[Theroc]

(Note: The sorcerer build I had up earlier placed Planar Binding in the wrong place. Correcting that means I had to shift a few spells around. It got more powerful.)

Long story short, a properly optimized wizard compared to, say, melee classes goes something like...


YouTube - Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit


Again, if you want to see how a martial "caster killer" party would work against it, feel free to roll up some dudes.

Roflmao... that totally got linked up on my facebook for my friends.

 

[maleficarium]

The primary problem with Wizards and the rest of the big 5 (druid, archivist, etc) is the insane versatility they have. Even leaving out the most ridiculous spells (such as Shapechange), they can have options and oversimplify fights very easily.

DM throwing you vs an BBEG + Minions combo? Just throw the BBEG into a Maze till you deal with the minions. Or maybe trap the minions into a mini-labyrinth of prismatic walls and fog spells. Or you could buff the party. Or summon a few beasts to help out. The list just goes on and on.

At lower levels things can be even worse since opponents can actually fail their saves most of the time thus a single Glitterdust can end encounters, and that doesn't even account for Sculpt Spell.