D&D 4E The (lack of a) Bag of Rats Problem in 4e

[AllisterH]

Again, that gets into splitting hairs - something the DM ultimately has to just say, "knock it off, guys!" and be done with it. If they want to waste my time and theirs by using silly tricks, that's fine, I can oblige, but I really don't see us getting any gaming done...

You know what's cool about the DMG? It axtually talks about and gives advice about these type of situations that come up at the table.

Where the hell was this book 20 years ago!!!

 

[Thasmodious]

The problem with 3e is that when the designers learned of the bag o rats trick, they thought "we must fix this." It didn't need fixing. There's theoretically broken and gameplay broken. Any player that actually tried such nonsense at the table should be beaten by the others and thrown in the bag of rats. That 3e tried to fix these types of things was a big source of the rules creep and complexity that developed.

Even when there is a potential "hole" in the rules, a player that tries to exploit that hole at the table is a *********. The rules don't need to expressly address such things. "Legitimate targets" (and similar advice) is basically a handwave to help empower novice DMs to deal with such things.

 

[Westwind]

I take this as a both a quick word of advice to novice DMs that it's okay to use common sense and an Easter egg for the internet-crowd. Player/DM arms races are never fun--besides I won the last one with my Spring Attacking, rogue-leveled Xorns in tight spaces

 

[hennebeck]

And in no way should a new edition help a novice DM.
I'm in agreement with the previous poster, where was this book, um, 21 years ago??

 

[DreamChaser]

If a slept minion is a legitimate target, then *anything* is a legitimate target.

the minion *could* wake up and *could* hit and *could* deal damage. the rats, no matter their state, could not.

I have 5 rats. The one time I've ever been bitten was annoying but hardly dangerous.

i.e. if it could never be a real threat, then it isn't a real threat and stop trying to cheese out the rules by pretending like it is.

DC

 

[pogminky]

Player ".....Well, I get out my sack of rats and...."
DM "No."
Player " But..."
DM "No."
Player "But the rules say..."
DM "No."
Player "..."
DM "Right. Now let's continue the game."

 

[Midknightsun]

There's theoretically broken and gameplay broken. Any player that actually tried such nonsense at the table should be beaten by the others and thrown in the bag of rats.

This

 

[Derren]

the minion *could* wake up and *could* hit and *could* deal damage. the rats, no matter their state, could not.

I am sure there are some tiny level 1 minion monsters higher level PCs can take with them and use as sacrifice.
Also, what about some creepy vodoo inspired warlock who carries some chicken with him and breakes their neck if he wants a quick teleportation. Is that "in character" enough for a valid bag of rats use or not?

Swarms are also very strange. Technically the "on kill" abilities should always trigger when you his a swarm.

 

[pogminky]

I am sure there are some tiny level 1 minion monsters higher level PCs can take with them and use as sacrifice.

See my previus post

 

[Kraydak]

the minion *could* wake up and *could* hit and *could* deal damage. the rats, no matter their state, could not.

I have 5 rats. The one time I've ever been bitten was annoying but hardly dangerous.

i.e. if it could never be a real threat, then it isn't a real threat and stop trying to cheese out the rules by pretending like it is.

DC

IIRC KotS has rat minions. They are legitimate targets there...