D&D 4E The (lack of a) Bag of Rats Problem in 4e

[Dracollich]

A few encounters after a PC has spent the time capturing giant rat minions....

PC "I pull out my bag of giant rats from my backpack."
DM "You notice a hole in the bottom of the bag and at this moment it becomes apparent to you that they've just eaten through your backpack."
PC "But..."
DM "And now they've managed to get down your pants."

 

[N0Man]

I'm amazed at the ridiculousness that some players try. There is a thread on the official forums where people were arguing that you can use Cleave to pick your original target as the 2nd target, because it says "and an enemy adjacent to you", not "and *another* enemy adjacent to you...

Them: "But rule descriptions trump the flavor text that says 'cleave into another'!".

Apparently common sense and the meaning of the word 'and' get thrown out the window.

 

[tomBitonti]

Ok, this is getting a bit annoying. The real issue with the "bag o' rats" trick wasn't that it was unreasonable. Cleave itself is unreasonable. I have always considered that a player using the bag of rats trick was using an absurdity to point out a deeper absurdity.

 

[w_earle_wheeler]

Back in my day, we carried our bags of rats on the end of our 10' poles, AND WE LIKED IT.

 

[Grazzt]

I'm amazed at the ridiculousness that some players try. There is a thread on the official forums where people were arguing that you can use Cleave to pick your original target as the 2nd target, because it says "and an enemy adjacent to you", not "and *another* enemy adjacent to you...

Them: "But rule descriptions trump the flavor text that says 'cleave into another'!".

And this surprises you why?

 

[Accersitus]

But what if the DM rules that the rats in the bag
are a single rat swarm.
Player: I drop a rat from my bag and kill it to activate my ability.
DM: How do you kill it?
Player: If it's that important I squash it under my boot.
DM: Roll unarmed attack vs the rat.
Player: Why, it's just a rat.
DM: no, you have a rat swarm in your bag and are declaring
that you take one of the rats and attack it.
Player: Rolls attack. Hey I hit and did x damage can I use my ability
now?
DM: No, you only killed one of the rats in the swarm.
They now have x less hp. Now who has the next highest initiative,
(rolls a d20) the rats . You are attacked by a rat swarm.

 

[MarkB]

Player: "I open my bag of rats!"

DM: "Hmm, looks like they've been breeding in there since you bought them. Roll a save versus nausea as the rat swarm starts gnawing on you."

 

[Jer]

If a slept minion is a legitimate target, then *anything* is a legitimate target.

Ah then I'm fine. Because if a player tried to cleave from a minion affected by a sleep spell to another creature, I'd give him the hairy eyeball. Cleave in 3e is a dramatic feat that seems intended to be used to simulate an action movie dynamic - in 4e it seems to have a similar intent. Bouncing an "attack" off a helpless creature is not dramatic enough to use the Cleave feat/power at my table. So no worries for me. (And to be honest, I've never even had a player suggest something like this - everyone who's ever played a fighter at my table has implicitly understood what Cleave was supposed to emulate and have never even suggested something like this. I will admit that I may just be lucky that way.)

Ok, this is getting a bit annoying. The real issue with the "bag o' rats" trick wasn't that it was unreasonable. Cleave itself is unreasonable. I have always considered that a player using the bag of rats trick was using an absurdity to point out a deeper absurdity.

Why is Cleave absurd and unreasonable? I've never seen a problem with the 3e incarnation, and in my first 4e runthrough for my group it seemed to work perfectly well (this afternoon - we played through part of KotS and it was a blast). Of all the things that I found silly or weird with the 3e rules, Cleave is one that I've never seen an actual problem with (though the amount of discussion the 'bag of rats' "problem" has generated over the years would make one think it was the biggest flaws 3e has).

 

[The Little Raven]

I am sure there are some tiny level 1 minion monsters higher level PCs can take with them and use as sacrifice.

What part of meaningful threat is unclear to you?

Also, what about some creepy vodoo inspired warlock who carries some chicken with him and breakes their neck if he wants a quick teleportation. Is that "in character" enough for a valid bag of rats use or not?

The words "in character" don't come up in that quote. The words "meaningful threat" are the important ones.

Swarms are also very strange. Technically the "on kill" abilities should always trigger when you his a swarm.

If you ignore the rules which state that the swarm is one creature.

 

[Sigdel]

Ok, I've got to ask. What is this "bag o rats" thing that apparently has been an issue for years? Because this is the first I've heard of it and it is, honestly, one of the funniest things I've heard in a while.