D&D 4E The (lack of a) Bag of Rats Problem in 4e

[Rhiarion]

Sigdel, 4e is closing some dodgy, literal interpretations of rules.

In 3.x a character with the Whirlwind Attack and Great Cleave feats, would (in some peoples games), drop a bag of rats on to the ground, WWAttack and use the free Cleave gained by killing each "foe" on the Big Monster that scared the PC into using this tactic.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Ok, this is getting a bit annoying. The real issue with the "bag o' rats" trick wasn't that it was unreasonable. Cleave itself is unreasonable. I have always considered that a player using the bag of rats trick was using an absurdity to point out a deeper absurdity.

Exactly. The fact that the bag-o-rats becomes a valid enough concept that they need to rule against it says more to me about the underlyng system than anything else.

 

[Grazzt]

Sigdel, 4e is closing some dodgy, literal interpretations of rules.

In 3.x a character with the Whirlwind Attack and Great Cleave feats, would (in some peoples games), drop a bag of rats on to the ground, WWAttack and use the free Cleave gained by killing each "foe" on the Big Monster that scared the PC into using this tactic.

Wow. Never actually heard of anyone doing that. Doesnt really surprise me though. Thankfully no one ever tried that in any game I DM'ed or played in....especially DM'ed...cause then Mickey, the Rat King Lord, would've paid the PCs a little visit, pissed off as to why they insist on slaughtering his kin for no apparent reason.

 

[The Little Raven]

Never actually heard of anyone doing that.

I've only heard of it on the internet from people who use the most ridiculous situations and arguments in order to "prove" there's a problem with something. At any table I've ever played at, a player with that mentality would have been asked to leave.

 

[Grazzt]

At any table I've ever played at, a player with that mentality would have been asked to leave.

Yep. Most definitely. And I still would've fed his character to the Rat King Lord.

 

[The Little Raven]

Yep. Most definitely. And I still would've fed his character to the Rat King Lord.

Oh, no doubt.

"You are hit in the neck with a poison dart and die."
"What does that mean?"
"It means you're dead."
"Well... what are my options?"
"Leave."

 

[Kraydak]

What part of meaningful threat is unclear to you?
...

What part of "there are creatures which are simultaneously meaningful threats and bag-o-rat candidates" is unclear to you?

 

[The Little Raven]

What part of "there are creatures which are simultaneously meaningful threats and bag-o-rat candidates" is unclear to you?

If it's a creature you carry around in a burlap sack on your shoulder, then calling it a meaningful threat is ridiculous.

 

[Kraydak]

If it's a creature you carry around in a burlap sack on your shoulder, then calling it a meaningful threat is ridiculous.

A level 1 character can carry a giant rat in a cage in a burlap sack on my shoulder. Said rat being a lvl 1 minion worth 25 xp. Go ahead, tell me that a creature *I get significant xp for* isn't a meaningful threat.

 

[The Little Raven]

Go ahead, tell me that a creature *I get significant xp for* isn't a meaningful threat.

Sure thing.

As DM, I am telling you that a creature you have put into a sack to carry around for silly metagame reasons is not a meaningful threat. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.