The Legendary Grappling Monk

[Lord Pendragon]

Damage Opponent is an opposed grapple check that deals non-lethal damage, and it replaces a normal attack. That means a monk can take a full attack action with flurry of blows and simply use the Damage Opponent option for all of his unarmed attacks to avoid the -4 penalty.

Arrrrgh!

Spoiler

I don't think so. You can't "use the Damage Opponent option" for unarmed attacks. Damage Opponent isn't a type of Unarmed Strike. It's not an option for Unarmed Striking. It's an entirely separate action, as you yourself pointed out: "it replaces a normal attack." Either you're using an Unarmed Strike (Attack Opponent), or you're using the Damage Opponent option, which means you're attacking through grapple checks, not with a weapon or unarmed strike, and therefore cannot flurry.

Arr, where be me grog?!

 

[Pbartender]

Alright.

I now see what you mean. For now I disagree and I think I would personally rule the other way (especially if it was a PC making the attack and it was in the middle of a gaming session), but I understand what you're getting at.

I'll think about it a little more...

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'll think about it a little more...

I'll add a related question for you to mull at the same time.

If a Monk with Cleave drops an opponent with an unarmed strike, can he grapple a second opponent with the extra attack from Cleave?

-Hyp.

 

[GakToid]

I post this everytime this topic comes up:

Power Throw
General, Fighter- REQ: Str 15+
If you are grappling an opponent, you may make a grapple check to pick him up and throw him. Obviously, you must have a high enough strength to lift your opponent's total weight above your head. You may then hurl your opponent up to 15 feet, inflicting 1d4 + your strength modifier in subdual damage and leaving him prone where he lands. You may throw your opponent at someone. Resolve this as a ranged touch attack. If you hit, your target takes 1d4 + your strength modifier in subdual damage. If he is the same size or smaller than the enemy you threw, he is knocked prone. Your thrown opponent takes 1d4 + your strength modifier in subdual damage whether you hit or not, and lies prone in a random spot adjacent to your target. Use the rules for scattering projectiles to determine where your thrown enemy lands. You may opt to carry your opponent over your head. You lose your Dexterity and shield bonuses to AC, but your opponent is largely helpless. He may make attacks at a -4 to hit and deals half damage with physical attacks. He may cast spells, but must make a concentration check (DC 25) to successfully use a spell. He may use special abilities and magic items, except weapons which suffer the penalties as noted above, as normal.
War, pg 46.

It's a little complicated, but it'll give you an idea to create a house rule from. Alternatively, take a look at Awesome Blow from the Monster Manual and create a house rule or feat from that.

-Gak Toid

 

[angry monkey]

it is an attack with neither a special monk weapon, nor an unarmed strike.

It deals damage equivalent to an unarmed strike, but it is not an unarmed strike.


Which he can do while grappling at -4 (assuming a light weapon). But he can't do something like Damage Opponent or Pin, which are not an attack with a special monk weapon or unarmed strike.

-Hyp.

I'm not sure I'm with you on this one - and I feel bad about that, because all the other times I've seen you post on these threads, you have been right. I feel bad because I don't want to be wrong, but I want to work this out...

What you are saying is that a grapple check is not an attack. In that case, and if you follow the reasoning out a bit further, it would mean that you can only make one grapple check a round. Since the full round action is taking multiple "attacks", not taking multiple "grapple checks".

Personally, I feel like any time you would be able to make an attack, you should be able to make a grapple check .... errr that doesn't sound right, I am obviously only talking about when you are in a grapple.

Frankly, and for some reason I know the boards don't always think this, I think that Monks are a little weak. So letting them flurry grapple in my RL game is either our interpretation of the rules, our house rule, or the hand of God, whichever you prefer.

I can't find a rule that contradicts it, it makes sense with the other abilites the monks have (I mean, any other time they get to do a full round of their monk damage, they also get to use flurry and they have an easier time starting a grapple), and I don't think it causes any imbalance.

Also, I can't find any rule that states you should take lower attack bonuses for your "iterative grapples". I haven't. Mostly because Heroforge only lists a grapple bonus, not multiple grapple bonuses. So I guess Black bart couldn't find a rule that states that either.

speaking of blackbart, that's a good pirate name.


ARRRRRRRRRRGH.


Oh, and the Mulling question:

Yes, though it wouldn't be wisest to do so directly.

They could cleave into their first attack, then automatically start a grapple as a free action (if unarmed).

 

[Hypersmurf]

What you are saying is that a grapple check is not an attack.

No, I'm saying it's not an attack with a special monk weapon or an unarmed strike.

As for the lower iterative bonuses:

If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

-Hyp.

 

[Pbartender]

Alright... Considering how often I have monks in my games, considering how often grappling happens in my games, and considering the typical amount of damage that extra unarmed attack will deal... Eh, it's not really a big enough impact on the game for me to worry about as a DM. So while I now think that you indeed probably have the correct interpretation, I also think that I'd give my players my standard reply to such a rule-question...

"Pick one or the other, and we'll use that one always. But remember... Whatever your characters can do, so can the NPCs."

Often that's enough to drive them away from an abusive interpretation of the rules.

I'll add a related question for you to mull at the same time.

If a Monk with Cleave drops an opponent with an unarmed strike, can he grapple a second opponent with the extra attack from Cleave?

-Hyp.

This one I'd definitely allow, and I'd allow it for anyone, not just a Monk... I'd put it into the same category as Tripping, Disarming or Sundering with a Cleaving attack. So long as the character is using the appropriate weapon for the attack (unarmed in this case), I'd let them do it... Of course he'll still incur any penalties or AoOs that the particular form of special attacks require.

Personally, I like it when my players try out new and interesting attack options and combinations. Unless the rules expressly forbid it, I try to use the loosest interpretation to give my players the most options.

Okay, here's another poser along the same lines...

If someone with the Cleave feat is grappling with an oppponent, and drops that opponent, do they get to make an extra Cleave attack against a second opponent?

 

[Hypersmurf]

So long as the character is using the appropriate weapon for the attack (unarmed in this case), I'd let them do it...

Take a look at the Weapon Focus feat. It can be taken multiple times, but each time it must apply to a different weapon.

Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) and Weapon Focus (Grapple) are two different Weapon Focus options. Therefore Unarmed Strike and Grapple are different weapons.

The Cleave feat states that the Cleave attack must be with the same weapon that dropped the original opponent. If the original opponent was dropped with an Unarmed Strike, and Unarmed Strike and Grapple are different weapons, the Cleave attack cannot be a Grapple.

If someone with the Cleave feat is grappling with an oppponent, and drops that opponent, do they get to make an extra Cleave attack against a second opponent?

I'd say sure... as long as the extra attack is a Grapple. So either a/ they're grappling multiple opponents, they drop one, and Cleave to make an extra grapple check against a second opponent, or b/ they drop the only opponent they're grappling, and Cleave to initiate a grapple against a second opponent.

-Hyp.

 

[Pbartender]

Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) and Weapon Focus (Grapple) are two different Weapon Focus options. Therefore Unarmed Strike and Grapple are different weapons.

An excellent point, which I hadn't considered...

 

[Hypersmurf]

It's one of those things that should have been mentioned in more than a single obscure spot in the rulebook.

cf Crossbow, Heavy, 3E PHB p100

-Hyp.