The Lethality of 4E

[brehobit]

I'm finding that a well-built party is extremely effective. The Ironwhatever encounter was deadly, but not overly so with a party of 3 and 2 NPCs. 1 cleric, 1 paladin, 1 warlord all at full made the indoor/outdoor encounter fairly easy. (NPCs were from the MM and didn't do much). The warlord getting a hit with his "leading the attack" was key of course.

What I'm trying to get at, is that a well balanced/optimal party is very deadly.

 

[Henry]

To be fair, Gary did think he'd put in D&D that the first 10' was 1d6, the next 10' added on 2d6 (so 3d6), and so forth so a fall of 50' was 15d6 damage.

Cheers!

That one is the second most deadly one, in my mind -- the one that was finally released in Dungeoneer's Survival Guide, I think? -- that opped out at 21d6 damage. My players did a double-take when I told them this one doesn't top out at 20 dice. There's the alternative rule where you just assume every 50 feet is 25 more damage, but that's the wimp's way out, in my mind.

On the subject of falling damage, it is really lethal, at least until you get someone trained in acrobatics. Take a 50 foot fall - 5d10 on average is 27.5 dmg. Then take a level 2 rogue, trained in acrobatics - Dex 18 (+4), trained (+5), 1/2 level (+1), without throwing in anything else, that's a +10 acrobatics check. Average result then is 20.5, turning that 27.5 into 7 points of falling damage from 50 feet up the cliff.

(PS - if you're having trouble remembering how you phrased your lethality comments in the other thread, check my sig)

It's actually one half your check result, not your check result, so that's still 17 points of damage from that 50 foot fall for the master acrobat. But now let's say he falls 100 feet down a cliff, like I've seen a 10th level 3E fighter do in one game from about two months ago -- that little reduction isn't going to help him then...

 

[Terwox]

My group had trouble with the kobolds fight. They felt particularly emasculated after that. Of course, the clerc being Mr. Team Player declared that "Healing normally happens -after- combat" and walked up and did basic attacks on the kobold slinger the whole time.
Needless to say he is not allowd to play a healer from now on.

Pardon the threadjack -- but if that guy is no one in the group's friend, just find a new player altogether.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

Ok, so we had a party of:

Elf Ranger
1/2 Elf Cleric of Sehanine
Eladrin Wizard
Dragonborn Paladin
Tiefling Warlock

This weekend they fought Irontooth and his buddies and they suffered a TPK. Well, they would have but the Warlock managed to retreat with his remaining 6 hit points.

I'm looking at this encounter and I think it was poorly designed. There have been WAY to many accounts of TPKs.

The DMG rates that as an appropriate challenge for a 6th level party! It'd would be a tough challenge for a 4th-5th level group.

Barring some REALLY lucky roles, a group of 1st level PCs hardly have a chance.

Next weekend a group of 2nd level characters are going back and I'm adjusting the encounter to about 4th level like it should be.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Ok, so we had a party of:

Elf Ranger
1/2 Elf Cleric of Sehanine
Eladrin Wizard
Dragonborn Paladin
Tiefling Warlock

This weekend they fought Irontooth and his buddies and they suffered a TPK. Well, they would have but the Warlock managed to retreat with his remaining 6 hit points.

I'm looking at this encounter and I think it was poorly designed. There have been WAY to many accounts of TPKs.

The DMG rates that as an appropriate challenge for a 6th level party! It'd would be a tough challenge for a 4th-5th level group.

Barring some REALLY lucky roles, a group of 1st level PCs hardly have a chance.

Next weekend a group of 2nd level characters are going back and I'm adjusting the encounter to about be about a 4th level encounter like it should be.

Lucky think is that their predecessors already have taken down some of the opposition (or so I hope )

I think the encounter is simply too hard. I don't know if it just exists to show off how D&D 4 is not a "simple" game where the players always win or something. Could be, I think that was the reason for the Dragon Solo in the DDXP, and Mike might have been in the same mindset.

Though there is an attempt to minimize the threat by splitting the encounter into two waves. I think it gets easier if the players manage to dispatch the first wave of enemies, but that requires some good planning and some luck. Mine succeeded at that, but even then, Irontooth was to strong for only 4 player characters. Well, I helped them a little, so they survived with 3 people making their death saves and the Wizard being the last man standing with single digit hit points...

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

Yeah, I'd really love to get some input from Mike on that encounter.

 

[radferth]

Not having actually played 4e yet, I must ask why no one withdraws what whatever Shadowfell encounter is killing so many folks. I remember in college, when we had many players (of various systems) who were playing tabletop for the first time (having only played eighties CRPGs up to that point). Many them suffered from the if-we-can-find-it-we-can-kill-it mentality, resulting in them occasionally suiciding themselves against foes who seemed like obvious candidates to negotiate with, flee, or avoid to long-time tabletop players. Has the careful scaling of 4e led many folks to believe all encounters will be beatable, or is there something about that encounter (or the system in general) that allows the deadliness to sneak up on you, so you don't realize what danger you're in until a bunch of folks suddenly fall?

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

I forked this discussion to a Shadowfell specific thread.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Not having actually played 4e yet, I must ask why no one withdraws what whatever Shadowfell encounter is killing so many folks. I remember in college, when we had many players (of various systems) who were playing tabletop for the first time (having only played eighties CRPGs up to that point). Many them suffered from the if-we-can-find-it-we-can-kill-it mentality, resulting in them occasionally suiciding themselves against foes who seemed like obvious candidates to negotiate with, flee, or avoid to long-time tabletop players. Has the careful scaling of 4e led many folks to believe all encounters will be beatable, or is there something about that encounter (or the system in general) that allows the deadliness to sneak up on you, so you don't realize what danger you're in until a bunch of folks suddenly fall?

I think it might be 3e mentality. You rarely had a chance to run in 3e - most the time, you were already dead when you figured that the opposition might be to strong for you to take...

Maybe it's also fault of the death save system and the more generous negative hit point values - you can't just leave someone behind if you know you could stabilize him!

And maybe it is because the fights aren't one-sided, either. The group takes down a lot of opposition. Only when the second character drops and you can't get him up you realize that maybe the remaining enemies might be too much.

The two near-TPK experiences our groups had, at the end the group began their retreat - but it was already too late, half of the PCs were on the floor. But the opposition was always weak enough to be taken down by a few attacks, so the "retreat under cover fire" ended always in an eventual victory...

 

[helium3]

I forked this discussion to a Shadowfell specific thread.

What's this forking thing I keep seeing. Is the thread attached to another one or something?