The Martial Laws

[Runestar]

Just to spice the topic up, also, what is exclusive to martial source? Divine has healing, mostly, and protecting allies, and arcane has most AoE. What does martial have?

The satisfaction of knowing that your capabilities are derived from your own physical prowess, and not from outside sources?

 

[Quickleaf]

Between Firelance and Estlor you've got a solid set of guidelines.

I would also add these genre physics guidelines by tier, using the Ranger as a model.

Heroic, physics are like action-packed heroic fantasy not unlike Legend of the Seeker TV series or Lord of the Rings where two arrows split mid flight to strike different targets (Ranger 1, Split the Tree), warn allies about a surprise attack (Ranger 6, Evade Ambush), and make a running attack against two foes (Ranger 9, Attacks on the Run).

Epic, reality for martial heroes follows wushu and kung fu movies where a shot from an arrow knocks a hero back a dozen feet (Ranger's 23 Hammer Shot), vanish into the forest (Ranger's 22 Forest Ghost), or flying among foes with spinning blades (Ranger's 27 Wandering Tornado).

I'm not sure exactly what kind of movies best model paragon-tier martial action.

 

[FireLance]

FireLance, it looks like I've sidetracked your thread - I'm sorry.

No problem. Actually, I think it's a valid digression.

My intent was simply to put out there that as you hit higher levels martial powers will look a lot less earth-realistic and far more supernatural.

The problem with Superman is that his special abilities are arguably more racial than martial, like a dragonborn's breath weapon or an eladrin's ability to teleport.

Which then raises a question that Quickleaf also touched on in his post: what are some examples of epic-tier martial heroes? Beowulf? Leonidas? Guan Yu?

 

[FireLance]

Just to spice the topic up, also, what is exclusive to martial source? Divine has healing, mostly, and protecting allies, and arcane has most AoE. What does martial have?

Offhand, I'd say that the martial power source has the most Reliable powers.

 

[blargney the second]

No problem. Actually, I think it's a valid digression.
The problem with Superman is that his special abilities are arguably more racial than martial, like a dragonborn's breath weapon or an eladrin's ability to teleport.

Which then raises a question that Quickleaf also touched on in his post: what are some examples of epic-tier martial heroes? Beowulf? Leonidas? Guan Yu?

Yeah, Supe's got a couple of things going on: souped-up racial powers as well as high level (potentially) martial class abilities that rely heavily on his huge strength and endurance.

Here are some rough ideas for martial characters in the three tiers. I'd put some higher than others within a given tier, but it doesn't really matter.

Heroic: Batman, Indiana Jones, Legolas, Captain America
Paragon: Spiderman, Hulk, Glorfindel, Thing
Epic: Superman, Thor, Beowulf, Hercules

Huh, I just realized that a lot of the higher-ups in that list are infused with power from some other source, like radioactivity or divinity. I suppose D&D would use latent magic as its default infusion to enhance characters' personal abilities.
-blarg

 

[Mad Mac]

Offhand, I'd say that the martial power source has the most Reliable powers.

Reliable, Stances, Invigorating, and Rattling power's are heavily skewed towards or exclusive to martial.

 

[Leatherhead]

The majority of attack powers should require weapons. There should also be a subset of powers that change depending on what weapon grouping is being used, with at least one power at every level that caters to any weapon grouping.

Most status conditions and moving enemies around are common and "believable" secondary effects. Conjurations are not, zones are probably pushing it and perhaps better handled with a stance. Counterattacks that are Immediate actions are also prime candidates for powers.

And personally, I would create poison powers for rogues.

 

[Runestar]

Which then raises a question that Quickleaf also touched on in his post: what are some examples of epic-tier martial heroes? Beowulf? Leonidas? Guan Yu?

Would this be too exaggerated even for epic?

Manga Fox: The Celestial Zone I Manga Series

Volumes 5 (chapter18) and 7 (chapter25) for some sample fight scenes. Pity that site only has up to 7 volumes, the better fight scenes come in the 2nd half of the book, IMO.

To be honest, that was the series which sparked my interest in tome of battle.

 

[FireLance]

Huh, I just realized that a lot of the higher-ups in that list are infused with power from some other source, like radioactivity or divinity. I suppose D&D would use latent magic as its default infusion to enhance characters' personal abilities.

I guess that's the problem with the implicit "non-magical" nature of the martial power source. Even the idea of using background magic to enhance the practioner's personal physical abilities may make it seem no longer martial to some. There may also be some potential overlap with the forthcoming ki and psionic (at least, the psychometabolism bits) power sources.

 

[Klaus]

No problem. Actually, I think it's a valid digression.
The problem with Superman is that his special abilities are arguably more racial than martial, like a dragonborn's breath weapon or an eladrin's ability to teleport.

Which then raises a question that Quickleaf also touched on in his post: what are some examples of epic-tier martial heroes? Beowulf? Leonidas? Guan Yu?

Epic Martial Heroes? I'd say characters like those in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, House of Flying Daggers and Hero. But then again, I'm all in favor of a monk using the Martial power source.

Western epic martial heroes would be legends like Beowulf, Herakles, Samson, David and King Arthur.

Beowulf - Fought aquatic monsters underwater holding his breath for hours.
Herakles - Helped the gods fight the Gigantes, choked an invulnerable lion to death, sired hundreds of children.
Samson - Brought down an entire edifice through strength alone.
David - Felled a giant with a single well-placed shot.
King Arthur - I recall at least one instance of La Mrt d'Arthur where he severed a giant's leg at the knees so he could reach his head and behead him.

So while Heroic and Paragon martial heroes stay within the laws of physics (even if they do push things a bit), Epic martial heroes break the laws of physics through sheer awesomeness.