The math of GWM/SS

His post spends significant space crunching numbers on GWM, but with no indication he's crunching the case where GWM is actually good. This makes me worry someone will take his number as proof GWM is alright.

And no, you don't get to say his post uses the case (one of them at least) where GWM really shows its true colors. There's a huge difference between theoretically being able to have numbers "plugged into this formula" and actually doing it.

But I think we're done here. I am happy I have provided an illustrative overview of the problem area that complements the OP for any interested readers. Have a nice day.

I think you are looking toward his post as something it is not.

There is no attempt to say GWM is or is not OP.

Let me repeat that.

There is no attempt to say GWM is or is not OP.

All it discusses is if you have GWM, when should you activate the -5/+10 and when shouldn't you in order to maximize your average damage.
 

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... No there isn't. It's literally nothing more complicated than addition. A four year old could do it. Hell, a four year old could teach it.
You are clearly not talking about the same thing as I.

No analysis so far that I have seen has come to providing the numbers for the case I outlined earlier. If a four-year old could do it, do you really think anyone would still defend these feats?
 

You are clearly not talking about the same thing as I.

No analysis so far that I have seen has come to providing the numbers for the case I outlined earlier. If a four-year old could do it, do you really think anyone would still defend these feats?

Yes, this is what people are telling you: you're the only one talking about whatever it is you're talking about. This thread isn't about what you're talking about, and the OP isn't about what you're talking about. You are, as a matter of fact, intruding into this thread with your own agenda and trying to derail it instead of talking about the topic. There's a poster on this board that really doesn't like that kind of thing... I'm struggling to remember who it might be... hang on, it's right there...
 

Or, you could realiz this is a role playing game and that you are playing the role of a character that is not making battle decsions based upon abstract optimization of statistical models, attack bonuses and all this junk.

If you're a sharpshooter, you take the precise shot when it tells a good story. Do you always do it? Do you only do it against certain foes? When angry? Against big brutes? What tells a good story?

If you're a great weapon master, when do you sacrifice accuracy for power?

You'll have more fun if you stop optimizing the mathematical models at the game table and start optimizing the story.

If you optimize your math, it just results in a war of escalation with the DM that ends in imbalanced play - and usually PC deaths. The dirty little secret of optimization: An optimized PC is more likely to die than a non-optimized one. So are his allies. Why? Optimization usually is not balanced - it makes one aspect of the PC better while leaving other things at normal levels. When the DM adjusts for the excessive element, usually offense, of the PC, they do so wth more advanced threats that are better at a spectrum of things. If those enemies negate the focused advantage of the PC, such as with a stun or by separating that PC, the rest of the PCs become overpowered more easily... and that starts the chain of PC deaths. The game works best with balanced PCs that focus on optimizing only one thing: fun.
 

Without looking at your numbers specifically, I find that this type of analyses are usually misleading, grossly underestimating what a minmaxer can do with the -5/+10 mechanism, thus severely underestimating the power of these feats.

In short: these feats are completely broken but white-room analysis generally doesn't see it.

Again, I haven't looked at this particular set of numbers. But I can ask you all - do they crunch the numbers for the following scenario? (If so I will be impressed, no other similar analysis have even come close, and I will happily admit that my previous statements then do not apply in this specific case :) But I am not holding my breath, the math gets complicated, much more so than most white-room analysts are prepared to deal with.)

Case in point (and please excuse any mistakes with details; I'm doing this from memory here): Battlemaster Fighter using a -5/+10 feat in conjunction with advantage, possibly a bonus such as Bless, and the Precision maneuver.

Obviously no serious analysis would make the error of computing average damage without taking into account that using GWM/SS is voluntary. Lots of flawed efforts add in the negative impact of using -5 when enemy AC is too high - I am assuming this is not the case here.

You should then use Precision to turn near-misses into hits. Rolls of perhaps 1 thru 5 will be left alone (accepted as misses), with advantage this happens much less often than 25%.

You will find two things: a) the miss rate is really low, despite -5 b) you don't use nearly as many superiority dice as for other maneuvers (you don't need to spend a superiority die on a hit or a clear miss, only near misses)

This makes you come close to the full potential of +10 damage per attack, and good sustainability of the tactic (you can expect to use it for a large portion of the day's important battles).

If this poster's analysis shows that GWM/SS grants between +30 and +50 damage at medium- to high levels for a properly minmaxed character, congratulations - that matches my actual play experience.

It also proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that these feats are completely broken in expert hands. Nothing else in the game comes close to granting you a potential +10 damage, and the -5 can be played around, as shown. WotC's designers must be less than expert, or they would have caught and stopped this.


Have a nice day.
Zapp

PS. If you have any questions, there are very many and very long threads about the subject. Every piece of data you might require is there. DS
Damn... I am would be interested to be a fly in the wall in your life. Man thinks he has a 20 in int but really just has low charisma.

"I was able to abuse this by building a character specifically around it. Heh, idiot game designers don't know what hit them. How stupid do you have to be to allow a phenom edge case like me ruin your entire game. Btw OP why didn't you take my character into account when doing your numbers. It's almost like you didn't know I am him."

OP this was a great post and a really good base line for more options than I would've been willing to go through. Hence me not posting something like this. Thank you for sharing your work, keep on crushing it King/Queen!!!
 

Didn't mean to post comment more than I've. So this one has been edited to show the Bard's can also use GWM ;)
 

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