The minuses of pluses, the pluses of minuses.

[Nonlethal Force]

Although this is only a problem if you apply stat bonus/penalty AFTER point buy. If you adjust the base stats (assuming a +2/-2 race: 10,8,8,8,8,6) before buying anything the bonus doesn't count for 6 extra points but only 2 and evens the field a bit.

Is this common? I think it is a brilliant concept at first glance, and am surprised that I've never heard of it before this very moment. I realize that it doesn't completely even the score if a player is willing to play with a stat of 6, but it sure helps even the field in the direction of the human.

 

[ogre]

I can see the rationalization for not putting ability penalties on races, thanks for shedding some light on that oh great ENWorld guru's! I guess it makes sense.
However......... I still think flaws are necessary. As someone suggested, the proposed human 'corruptable' racial trait may be a good place to start. What if each race had a personality flaw, something that didn't affect ability mechanics, but more a flaw that comes into play only during certain situations. The more beneficial the race's perks, the worse the flaw. Now, I'm not sure what the human corruptable thing is, all I'm really sure about is that it screams LotR! (which I'm ok with).

Anyway, what if elves had 'frailty' - When an elf is bloodied, he can only move at half speed. Or a dwarf 'temper' - when a dwarf is under the effects of something that causes his speed or attacks to be reduced he cannot perform any actions that require concentration. Just quick ideas to make a point.

Anyway, as many have pointed out here, perhaps an ability penalty is a poor choice to instill a flaw in a race, but maybe we'll see something even better? I hope so, cause I can only drink so much 'soda pop' before I need a real drink

 

[Dragonblade]

Doesn't change the fact that HP's still are king, and that the elf sucked in 2e..

Clearly you never played a 2e Bladesinger, or had the Complete Book of Elves.

 

[Midknightsun]

Clearly you never played a 2e Bladesinger, or had the Complete Book of Elves.

Indeed, I remember reading through that and waiting for them to get "lazer beam eyes", and "telekinetic flight".

(Minor exaggeration---only minor)

 

[Glyfair]

Actually, with Point Buy ability mods are a distinct advantage.

With the caveat that we are talking about the current point buy system. The escalating costs are the big advantage since the penalty will almost always cost you 2 points in a stat (at least if the slightest bit of optimization is used) whereas the bonus will gain you much more than that.

If all points cost the same (which some prefer) the costs of the penalty and bonus balance out. The only advantage then is the ability to have two stats that exceed the normal limit, i.e. you can have two stats above 18 if you have two bonuses.

 

[Lalato]

As for point buy... sure, if you're using a 32 point buy you're going to get some crazy big numbers, but what if the expected point buy is 25?

--sam

 

[Incenjucar]

Flaws can be fun, but they're better left as optional rules rather than mandatory.

 

[Ahglock]

Clearly you never played a 2e Bladesinger, or had the Complete Book of Elves.

You didn't even need that. Multi-classing was King in 2e and Elves by far had the best multi-class combos. The complete book of elves was just kicking all the other races while they were down.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

Second, having a penalty really made choosing a race, well... challenging.

Just about every group I played in stuck with Humans. Or dwarves? Why? Well one, nobody really liked the other races. But also, lack of penalties (or at least, significant ones) was a major factor as well.

Bonuses without penalties could work out really well, depending on how they implement the other races, and how they compare to humans (who have always kind of been the baseline).

 

[Jack99]

Clearly you never played a 2e Bladesinger, or had the Complete Book of Elves.

I don't get to play many classes, I DM most of the time. And while bladesinger was indeed powerful, I was speaking in broad terms, core books if you will. Meaning standard elf with standard choices. When speaking about balance and powerlevel, I find it hard to include all splat-books, since one can not expect all, or even most people to have said books.

It's like saying a fighter in 3.5 is overpowered because he can with just one level of barbarian get access to frenzied berserker....

Cheers,