The Miracle of the Thing, and the real Miracle-Man

[Jack7]

To me I was never really impressed with Clerical Magic, precisely because it was nothing more than clerical magic. It was not to me what Clerical powers should be about, which were, Miracles and Wonder Workings, or as the Greeks would say, not sorcery or magic, but Thaumaturgy.

I thought that, interestingly (and kind of ironically) enough, the 4E Cleric came closer to being a real Cleric or Miracle Worker than most of the other editions.

I'd personally like to see the Miraculous powers of the Cleric distinguished from the Magical powers of the Magic-User.

I understand that some will say, "Magic is simply Miracles in another verbiage." Or vice versa. I think that is true to some limited extent, but is very untrue in many other respects.

You can define the issues as you like, I'm open to anyone's definitions.

But assuming you agree with me, generally speaking, and feel Miracles are different from Magic, and that Miracles are the provenance of the Cleric, and the Cleric is the providence of the Miracle (whereas Magic is the art of the Magic user, and not of the Cleric), then how would you, in 5th Edition design a Cleric so that his Miraculous and Wonder Working Powers worked distinctly differently from that of the Magic user and did distinctly different things in distinctly different ways? (Although of course I understand there will be some overlap in some cases).

How do you make the Cleric truly Miraculous?

 

[Ahnehnois]

To me, the thing that would be really great to do is if you could create some ambiguity in how the event happened. Something that could be caused by divine intervention, or not. That way, there's still a question of faith.

I have no idea how to make that happen; it may be outside the purview of D&D.

 

[Pour]

I think you deny other magical and supernatural classes some of the cleric's miraculous stuff, and not just the healing and raise dead, but evocative, non-utility, frankly desirable things- plagues, divine summons, golem construction, a fair number of rituals, some evangelical and terrain-changing stuff, a little augury, etc. Maybe there needs to be a better distribution of power, largely taking from the magic-users and the Arcane power source. Wizards simply get too much, in my opinion.

I agree the 4e Cleric was the right direction, a true holy fighting man, and also the Invoker and Avenger, which took the Divine power source toward prophets delivering miracles/maledictions and the holy assassin/inquisitor respectively, which I think are unique, Divine-specific ground. I'd roll Paladin into this, too, the holy knight which really stands on its own as uniquely divine and pretty much a mainstay.

I think the DM also has to play a roll in this, providing the clerical structure of the world, the churches, the followers, and allow the cleric to come into his own both terrestrially and spiritually- eventually being enlisted in plots of wider and wider divine scope, or else establishing his religion or beliefs across the setting. This extends, also, to opposing religions, and opposing ideologies within the very same religion. All of that touches ground magic-users simply cannot cover, and which are fun, engaging, and sometimes delve into some really poignant moral and spiritual play.

 

[Stormonu]

Clerics would make for a very interesting card mechanic.

It would be the idea that you are appealing to a greater power (in this case the character would be appealing to the player, actually).

The player would have a deck of cards/abilities representing the miracles the cleric could bring into effect with an appeal. With a hand of say 3-5 cards (drawn after the cleric starts his action), the player would be choosing which miracle manifests at the time. The cards would have to be generic enough that any given card would be useful 75% to 95% of the time in a given situation.

You could change this up with the player having a hand at all times so he has an idea of what he can do at any given point (and thus possibly miracles with a more focused purpose/effect), but I think it would better represent the supernatural, unexpected quality if the cards weren't drawn until after the player has declared he's "praying for a miracle". You might even be able to work into a mechanic where the more fervently (read as: spends more actions) he prays, the more likely he is to get the miracle he's looking for (read: draw more cards).

 

[Jack7]

To me, the thing that would be really great to do is if you could create some ambiguity in how the event happened. Something that could be caused by divine intervention, or not. That way, there's still a question of faith.

An excellent idea, and something I've been working on myself. But in a different way than you suggest.

I agree the 4e Cleric was the right direction, a true holy fighting man, and also the Invoker and Avenger, which took the Divine power source toward prophets delivering miracles/maledictions and the holy assassin/inquisitor respectively, which I think are unique, Divine-specific ground. I'd roll Paladin into this, too, the holy knight which really stands on its own as uniquely divine and pretty much a mainstay.

I concur. the Paladin is obviously a Combat Cleric, and I think his powers should also be miraculous.

Some good ideas.

Well folks, good night for now. Carry on.

 

[kinem]

Personally, I'd like to see religion taken out of the core rules. I see no reason that a witch/wizard shouldn't be able to heal.

Making clerical magic depend on cards would do nothing but draw complaints about clerics being nothing but wands of wonder, or being too dependent on DM whim.

And human conflicts are much more interesting when there's no way to prove who's evil, who's lying, and who's wrong about what "the gods" want.

 

[Jack7]

And human conflicts are much more interesting when there's no way to prove who's evil, who's lying, and who's wrong about what "the gods" want.

I'd agree if that were the case with clerics. If they were used to "prove" (as in the judicial sense) what the gods want. But I don't think that should be their real function, or that that should be the point of faith in-game.


Last night though I had some other ideas. This morning actually, as I couldn't sleep much, and arose early - insomnia and all.

I was reading some of the early Church fathers before bed (I'm studying to be a Priest) and some things occurred to me that I thought would be of use in making Clerics men and women of Wonder, rather than of magic.

So I split clerical Abilities into three broad categories. I'm going to use basic English terms rather than Latin or Greek or some other language so as to avoid confusion.

Rites and Rituals - this could be a lot like 4E rituals with rites being more religious in nature and designed to augment faith, rather than rites being wonders in themselves. Though it would depend very much on what the rite involved, and Rituals (a different kind of rite) could definitely be Wondrous, again it would depend upon the nature of the Ritual.

Wonders - this would be what people normally think of as Clerical spells and abilities and powers. They would be those powers and wonders granted the cleric and that he would have some measure of control over himself.

Miracles - these would be superlative and grand Wonders, well beyond those normally associated with lesser clerics. These would be more like Saintly order events of Divine origin. Though clerics of any level could possibly still evoke them under special circumstances. They just couldn't control them.

These three things would work at varying levels of effectiveness or scale, and would imply different levels of control on the part of the Cleric. For instance a Rite might be both a real and ritual cleansing to prevent or suppress the spread of disease. A whole church or community might undergo such a rite with the cleric leading the rite.

A Wonder might be anything from when a cleric cures minor wounds on an individual all the way up to curing a curse (say Lycanthropy) upon a single individual, upon a small group of people, or in a small area.

A Miracle would be grand in scale and/or scope and might involve the total conversion of a group of men from murderous cutthroats to honorable and peaceful men, or might involve curing an entire city or nation of a devastating plague.

As for control, the cleric would have almost complete and personal control over most rites and rituals. The cleric would have partial, maybe even up to majority control over his or her Wonders (though Deity would exercise some measure of control), and as for Miracles, the cleric or Saint would be a conduit, but would have little if any direct control over what actually occurs. With Miracles the cleric could have intentions for this or that to happen, but what actually happened would be out of his or her control. Except in very special circumstances.

These examples are tied to healing or curing, because they give easy examples for the Cleric, but could just as easily be applied to other types of Rites, Wonders, and Miracles.

Another thing I thought of involved "flock and followers." Rather than the just have the cleric affect his flock and followers, I thought it should also be apparent with the Cleric (as opposed to the Magic-user) that the flock and follower affect the Cleric. For instance if the Cleric is performing a Rite and there are a large number of followers, the odds increase that the rite will be effective, or more effective than normal.

If a cleric is operating in a party and the party has several members that worship the same gods or God, and/or several members of the party have great faith in the cleric himself, then when a cleric performs a Wonder this "flock faith" (perhaps expressed as a function of group-will) might increase the effectiveness of the Wonder or maybe even transform the Wonder performed into a greater, more impressive, or more important Wonder.

The same would apply to Miracles of course. The faith of the flock, friends, comrades, and followers might very well act as a "magnifying lens" that amplifies or even changes the focus of the rite, wonder, or miracle.

The last things I thought of involved Clerical animals, and relics and tokens, and rod and staff. There are many stories of the Saints for instance having miraculous or unusual animal companions. One of the most famous being Saint Francis and his wolf. Clerics and Saints would have companion animals (unlike Druids, Clerics would not necessarily be good with all/many animals, just perhaps one species or breed or just one particular animal) that would help to focus their powers of Wonder-Working, perhaps by showing kindness to the animal or perhaps the companion animal is a focus of Virtue or of some special spiritual gift or charisma that the cleric can use to real advantage.

Relics and tokens would also be points of the focus of spiritual gifts or of augmenting or amplifying Rites and Wonders, and if the relic were powerful enough and truly miraculous in its own right, of Miracles. Great Relics might be highly miraculous in anyone's hands, but far more so in the hand of Saint or powerful and virtuous cleric.

Lastly, I think the cleric should have a special Staff (like a shepherd's crook, for example) and/or Rod, both a symbol of his office or station and a focus for power and wonder working. This would include staffs (staves) or rods which are normal (any cleric could carry them), to special Miraculous staffs (the analogue to the Staff of the Magi for the Magic-User) all the way up to the Relical Staff which had once been the possession of a very powerful Cleric, Prophet, or Saint.

Changes like these, and some of the others suggested would, I think, go a long way to transforming the Cleric into a totally unique Miracle worker rather than just a supernatural Magic-User.

 

[LurkAway]

To me, the thing that would be really great to do is if you could create some ambiguity in how the event happened. Something that could be caused by divine intervention, or not. That way, there's still a question of faith.

Perhaps with arcane magic, the wizard knows how arcane magic works but not why. The cleric knows why clerical magic works but not how.

Say a wizard creates magic by visualizing a rune in his mind's eye while simultaneously uttering a word with precise intonation -- he has no idea why this works, but it does, and the process can be duplicated over and over with consistent results by anyone with sufficient skill and practice.

A priest might heal someone by calling to her god -- she knows her god is answering her prayer but she doesn't know how it works and why someone else cannot do the same using a simiilar prayer.

Perhaps wizard magic is very formulaic. You don't know how it works, so you stick with what you know how to do (and in your spare time, you spend hours researching what happens if you change this or that). With clerical magic, it's so much more freeform. You're not sure what exactly you're doing, so you do whatever you do in a moment of need with indefinite outcomes. Is there a way or a need to translate this fluff into distinct mechanics for wizards vs clerics?

 

[Hassassin]

Perhaps with arcane magic, the wizard knows how arcane magic works but not why. The cleric knows why clerical magic works but not how.

Say a wizard creates magic by visualizing a rune in his mind's eye while simultaneously uttering a word with precise intonation -- he has no idea why this works, but it does, and the process can be duplicated over and over with consistent results by anyone with sufficient skill and practice.

A priest might heal someone by calling to her god -- she knows her god is answering her prayer but she doesn't know how it works and why someone else cannot do the same using a simiilar prayer.

Is there a way or a need to translate this fluff into distinct mechanics for wizards vs clerics?

Interesting thought. Knowing "how" something works might give you versatility in applying it somewhat differently. For wizards this could mean access to some kind of metamagic.

Clerics' magic would be more situational - this spell only works on undead, because Lathander hates them. Not knowing "how" could mean more uncontrollable effects on critical success/failure.

 

[LurkAway]

Interesting though. Knowing "how" something works might give you versatility in applying it somewhat differently. For wizards this could mean access to some kind of metamagic.

Clerics' magic would be more situational - this spell only works on undead, because Lathander hates them. Not knowing "how" could mean more uncontrollable effects on critical success/failure.

I was editing the post at the same you replied, and yes, it does seem to lead to that.

The thing is, with clerical magic, there must be some sort of process, it's just that the priest doesn't know what it is. But we're playing a game with rules -- and so unless you give the DM to make godly decisions, you can't duplicate that experience. You can instead leave it to dice rolls, but for me, that makes it feel more like random probablity than anything miraculous.