The Miracle of the Thing, and the real Miracle-Man

[Aberzanzorax]

Miracles, IMO, are both rare and powerful.


I wonder if a mechanic (perhaps a ritual, with a small chance of failure) that allowed one or two uses per day of a spell more powerful than the most powerful spell of a wizard of the same level as the cleric would work.

Apart from that, the cleric would not cast magic, and would only be a fighting man.

 

[mmadsen]

If we look at what a holy man should be able to do on a regular basis, it should be limited to rites and rituals, which should have a profound effect without being at all miraculous -- boosting followers' morale, boosting Will saves, replenishing intangible plot-protection points, etc.

Miracles, on the other hand, are clearly not under the direct control of a typical holy man, and they're certainly not available n times per day, affecting a radius of i feet, etc. They seem like the should come into play only at higher levels, or when thematically appropriate, and the player should only suggest what kind of miracle might help; what actually happens should be something of a surprise.

 

[Jack7]

Miracles, IMO, are both rare and powerful.

If we look at what a holy man should be able to do on a regular basis, it should be limited to rites and rituals, which should have a profound effect without being at all miraculous -- boosting followers' morale, boosting Will saves, replenishing intangible plot-protection points, etc.

Miracles, on the other hand, are clearly not under the direct control of a typical holy man, and they're certainly not available n times per day, affecting a radius of i feet, etc. They seem like the should come into play only at higher levels, or when thematically appropriate, and the player should only suggest what kind of miracle might help; what actually happens should be something of a surprise.

That's basically what I'm shooting at. I'm basically with you guys. Rites and Rituals would be more or less under the Cleric's complete control. They could be performed as they wish, whenever and under the appropriate circumstances, though they could still be disrupted.

Wonders they could do on most occasions, they would be granted authority by their deity to do them, and they would have some control over them, but not full control. It might not turn out as expected though. They set out to cure critical wounds and because of some other considerations they only end up curing light wounds. Maybe curing nothing. On the other hand, if they have followers with strong faith, or they were being particularly rewarded for excellent service, had great faith themselves, or similar considerations existed then they might end up just plain curing all injuries on a person. Even old ones.

Miracles though, the cleric might desire to be a conduit for in a particular situation, but for whatever reason or reasons he isn't. Or he might become a conduit for some miracle when he's not even attempting to be or it might catch him completely off-guard. Miracles may be desired, but they are unpredictable and unregulated. And their effects cannot be anticipated.

A cleric (then again anyone else could as well, it's just that clerics are more naturally so) would be associated with miracles, would even try and promote and encourage them, but could not control them.

And I agree very much with the idea that true miracles (versus Wonders) should be very rare and very powerful. They should stop people in their tracks and make them go, "Whoa, that was truly miraculous!"

In my opinion the good cleric should not take credit for Miracles, but he or she should be able to say, "See, I told you so."

 

[unan oranis]

I'd like to see the difference-maker be that a cleric channels a greater power, and the wizard stands alone.

Alignment, code of conduct and weird taboos are critical factors for every cleric spell.

Each casting of a cleric spell is considered in its context to the gawds interests.

In a nutshell; the cleric would be selected for circumstantial ups and downs more frequently.

Also, the gawd, power, chi etc is a built in npc influence for the DM. If you like an obi kenobi style voice over, a rare omen or a mortal agent, the gawd connection is handy (though I guess a wizards familiar could stand in for the same purpose).

I don't feel a need for the clerics spells to be a completley different animal.

I'm fine with editions where the clerics spells were weaker as a trade for armor and so forth.

As a 4e player your spells are identical to everybodies, in a way... which is one way to solve the problem. (I mean the framework of powers, mechanicly - there are loads of clever ways each class is distinct in 4e, no dis intended)

 

[howandwhy99]

How do you make the Cleric truly Miraculous?

True miracles are acts of the gods. For my game, that's the distinction between a magic-user and a cleric using divine magic. The magic-user is using the power of the world and the planes that make it up, basically the Inner Planes. The cleric is calling on his or her specific deity to channel through them Outer Planar divine power.

This is what the Turning ability is all about: channeling that power in pure form. It is a miracle, sort of seeing the face of an others god.

So Big Deal, right? How I make these miraculous rather than magical (or psionic) is by making them unique. The divine spell system is different from the arcane one. The spells available are different. There may be some overlapping effects and each can be put into specializations (i.e. magic schools or religious canons) and then unique character personalization, but for the most part the effects are different. There exists a divide.

Think of it like the subclass Illusionist. The Illusionist spell lists are different from the M-Us. It is a specialty school with unique spells a M-U does not have access too. Now take that on a wide level in terms of clerics and we get even more separation, a greater diversity while retaining class identity and niche.

What I don't suggest is having different numbers, but every effect be in every camp. By effect I mean teleport is not invisibility is not enlarge is not magic missile. Don't make a difference the same lightning bolt effect, but 4d6 vs. 3d8 damage. The more similar the effects are the less miraculous (and magical) they characters become.

 

[Niccodaemus]

I've put up a post concerning Cleric spells vs magic spell on my blog:

Shatterworld: Behind the Scenes: Magic vs. MiracleShatterworld: Behind the Scenes: Magic vs. Miracle

Basically, I see "magic" as commanding supernatural spirits through authority revealed by the gods. The idea is based on the Key of Solomon and the notion that King Solomon, from the Bible, was in command of all of the demons and used that command to force them to build his temple.

However, Solomon was given this power by God, so the "magic" of Solomon is not "evil". Knowledge of such magic can be used for good or evil purposes.

Clerical spells on the other hand behave like powers granted to prophets and saints. Due to the pious nature of the individual, they are able to perform "miracles", without having to know any special "formulas". Their spells are more like "wish fulfillment" granted by the gods.

Priests are not by default, Clerics. Clerics are very rare, and are viewed with awe by the common folk, and with suspicion by people in power.

I think a big part of the answer to all of these "magic" questions comes in how the NPCs of the game world view the people using these powers.

 

[Jack7]

I think a big part of the answer to all of these "magic" questions comes in how the NPCs of the game world view the people using these powers.

I think that an excellent observation. I see no particular reason that at least certain types of clerics, maybe not as sub-classes, but as types would not be viewed as suspiciously as Magic-users would be in other places.

Clerics could very well have a long row to hoe if the Prophets and Saints are any examples.

Some would spend as much time being hunted or ostracized as being hailed as heroes by the People.

 

[Niccodaemus]

Clerics could very well have a long row to hoe if the Prophets and Saints are any examples.

Some would spend as much time being hunted or ostracized as being hailed as heroes by the People.

True, but this makes for a dynamic world, IMO. Arch Bishops (or whatever your hierarchy is called in your game world) could get very nervous if a guy is running around claiming to be acting on the behalf of the gods, and doing miracles to prove it. By limiting "Cleric" abilities to a select few, it raises the stakes of using their abilities at all in public, just as it does for magic users.

 

[Jack7]

True, but this makes for a dynamic world, IMO. Arch Bishops (or whatever your hierarchy is called in your game world) could get very nervous if a guy is running around claiming to be acting on the behalf of the gods, and doing miracles to prove it. By limiting "Cleric" abilities to a select few, it raises the stakes of using their abilities at all in public, just as it does for magic users.

I agree, it would make Clerics much more dynamic and their worlds much more dynamic if they are considered dangerous as well as important.

Often the Saints were at odds with the Church (hierarchy). The prophets at odds with their kings and kingdoms.

This makes for a much more dangerous state of affairs for everyone, but in my opinion a much better one as well.

I think clerics should be considered dangerous, as any truly powerful character is dangerous. But if I'm reading you right then we agree, dangerousness, wisely used, can be a very, very good thing.