The Misunderstood Paladin

[Umbran]

Hopefully these points will encourage people to re-think their interpretation of the Paladin class. I encouage any INTELLIGENT responses.

Well, before we start talking about what the Paladin is or is not, we should see what the original text says.

Let's see... 3.5e PHB, pg 44:
"Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents"

So, now to address your points.

1 - The paladin certainly follows a code. It may not specifically say anything about wearing heavy armor and carrying a lance, but it is a "knight's" code insofar as it follows the common conception of the Knights of the Round Table style of chivalry (which in the common mind is more about personal behavior than how you fight or whether or not your shoulders have been tapped by the king).

2 - You can house rule it out if you want, but as written lying is forbidden.

3 - Lawful may not imply law abiding, but the Code is more stringent than simple lawfulness. The Paladin must "respect legitimate authority". The DM has to figure out what "legitimate" means. Typically, in such context, it means "legal" rather than "Good". While Richard Lionheart is away in prison, it's okay to oppose Prince John, as he's not the legitimate ruler. If Richard dies, though, and Prince John becomes the legal king, the Paladin's paths of resistance become seriously narrowed. In general, it seem that the Paladin is supposed to play within the rules.

4 - You make this big deal about how paladins are not knights of a religion, when your real beef is only about making them recognizable as such.

 

[Avouz]

1) Paladins follow a Knight's Code: WRONG!!! ....
2) Paladins can't lie: .....
3) Lawful means Law-Abiding: WRONG!!! ......

4) Paladins are knights of a religion: Once again, WRONG!!! .....

I'm all for breaking the stereotypical "knight in shining armor" paladin. I once built a Robin Hood-style paladin that was an archer in leather armor. Not what a lot of people expected.

Still, I'd like to comment on your interpretation.

1) As others have stated, the paladin definately follows a code of conduct.

2) Case by case judgment on lying. There are often times circumstances when a paladin ends up in an inner struggle between the "lawful" portion of his alignment and the "good" portion. Casual lying is certainly forbidden, but lying in situations where telling the truth would be disastrous is more permissable (as in the guard asking "Are you a paladin?" example.)

3) I do see paladins are working within the system, obeying just law while they work to bring about changes for the greater good. Unjust laws are another matter entirely. I will agree with you on your "ordered life" interpreation, but that's in addition to being law-abiding, not instead of.

4) Your example of a paladin spy is intriging and in that particular circumstance, I can see the paladin not acting in accord with an established church. Still, under most situations, the paladin would work with (not neccessarily for) the church of his god's religion, which would no doubt lead many to associate the paladin with the church.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

I wouldn't say that necessarily a Pal is chosen by a God, it could be the opposite, that he chose to serve a God: in either case, this choice may be followed by a code of conduct.

Typically I feel that Clerics choose to serve a god while Paladins are chosen. Just my opinion of course.

 

[Eolin]

"2) Paladins can't lie: This is an offshoot of the Knight's code..."

Here's why this sticks around and probably should:
Immanal Kant.

While in the real world, ethics are going to vary from person to person and the entire field of ethics is somewhat chaotic (don't forget nobody really knowing what it is supposed to be about!), in the DnD world, there is a set morality. and when this morality is violated, it is a wrong action.

I was ging to talk about 3 or four different ethical systems, but decided to stick with Kant.

Kant holds that lying in any case is wrong. It is wrong not because of the outcome, but because it violates the Categorical Imperitive. In other words, Lying violates an overridding rule. For Paladins, these sorts of rules are in the eyes of the deity; if the deity holds that one should not lie, then a paladin should not lie *no matter the consequences*.

for a rule-following ethic, such as Kant or Paladins, it is not the outcome that is most important, but that one follows the correct rules. The rules for Kant flow from reason, and for Paladins flow from the deity -- it is not for the Paladin to violate these rules.

OK, that's enough Kant. I'll need to go wash my mouth out now... Kant makes me feel ill.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

Clearly, the fact that many DMs use Paladins-equivalent classes or PrCl for every alignment shows that being LG is mostly a "sacred cow".

Definitely have to agree with you on the Sacred Cow. I don't have my PHB with me but forcing Paladins to abide by their code and to never lie and all the other stuff makes them less playable. Basically if you play by the rules as written you are pidgeonholed into a very limited class. I think that the "Code" should be a personal thing for the Paladin character, not something established by the priesthood of the god he serves.

By the way, thanks for the replies. They have been very well thought out.

 

[billd91]

Definitely have to agree with you on the Sacred Cow. I don't have my PHB with me but forcing Paladins to abide by their code and to never lie and all the other stuff makes them less playable. Basically if you play by the rules as written you are pidgeonholed into a very limited class. I think that the "Code" should be a personal thing for the Paladin character, not something established by the priesthood of the god he serves.

By the way, thanks for the replies. They have been very well thought out.

For some people, however, the challenge of playing the paladin is having the character live up to these codes as best they can. It's not easy to play the paladin as written in a very strict fashion.
But why wouldn't the code be determined by the priesthood of the god being served (or more accurately, by the god's own doctrine and teachings)? Wouldn't that god expect the same things of people wielding divine power in his name? I can understand the actual clergy being part of an additional administrative set of rules because of being in a church hierarchy or a few minor modifications based on the role the character plays within the religion, but why should the fundamental codes of conduct be different? I don't really understand that at all. The paladin should be committed to the code of conduct and morality espoused by his god... and so should priests of the same religion.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Perhaps it'd be interesting to see, to further disprove the usual paladin stereotypes, some paladin builds that differ from the norm, ie the knightly type of paladin. What kind of non-traditional paladins have you played? It'd be more interesting, IMO, to see "straight" paladin builds (ie no multiclassing, PrC or not).

I agree that the paladin doesn't have to be the knightly type, but I have a hard time imagining a paladin any other way.

AR

 

[Calico_Jack73]

4) Your example of a paladin spy is intriging and in that particular circumstance, I can see the paladin not acting in accord with an established church. Still, under most situations, the paladin would work with (not neccessarily for) the church of his god's religion, which would no doubt lead many to associate the paladin with the church.

Who better than a Paladin to act as an Inquisitor? Typically they have high Charisma scores which will help when questioning people and the Detect Evil at will ability is obviously of great help.

 

[WizarDru]

And they're off..................!

It's a great day for a race here at ENWorld, and time for that classic matchup I know you've all been waiting for. Good Luck to all the contestants.

 

[Eolin]

::withdraws from the race::

I've ranted about Kant, and that's enough.