The Monk's Hit Dice Should Be a d8! [Rant]

[hong]

OK let me take this back at you then
Ki Strike I can go with changes a Monks attack so there I can allow it as an exception to the Supernatural Abilities takes a Standard Action to use.

But what is the diffrence of delivering a Stunning Effect from Delivering a Magic Missle effect in mechanics, please tell me

Exactly the same difference between using Ki strike and casting a magic missile.

The wording for stunning attacks makes explicit mention of making unarmed strikes. If SA was a separate action, there would be no need to make this reference. It would instead have said something like "the monk can stun opponents; make an attack roll, if you hit, the opponent must save or be stunned".

 

[Deset Gled]

Some comments about the monk class in general (though possibly a bit late):

One of the things that I really dislike about the monk class is that (by the core rules) it offers practically no room for personalization. The monks abilities work well if you like playing the exact monk that WotC made. But if you want to do things that are a bit different, you're only choice is to use stuff beyond the core rules. Because of this, there are places where they do well, and places where they suck, but the character doesn't get to make descisions about what situations those are. Conversely, other classes are highly specializable (fighter feats, wizard specialization, cleric domains, etc).

Also, it always apeared to me that the monk is based from the same frame as the cleric (variations on priests from 2e), rather than being based off the fighters frame, which would seem to me to make a lot more sense. I think that a lot of the problems that some people see with monk is because they want a martial artist that's a warrior, not a worshipper. To this, I highly recommend Beyond Monks (again. I should ask them for payment for it sometime). The martial artist class they provide is much closer to the fighter class than the core monk. Of course, in doing so, they give up some of the "really cool" monk abilities.

My current character is a martial artist that's based around the Flip Kick and Perfect Reflex feats. The basic fighting style I imagine is running around enemies in circles, kicking them in the shins. A nice side effect is that I can, in theory, make more than 4 attacks in a round and still take the total defence action. Both fun and effective, but unfortunately doesn't really start to work until around level 9 (which I'm not).

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Check out the D20 Mordern SRD. They have cool martial arts feats, but I haven't taken a good look at their Martial Artist class yet.

 

[Storm Raven]

The wording for stunning attacks makes explicit mention of making unarmed strikes. If SA was a separate action, there would be no need to make this reference. It would instead have said something like "the monk can stun opponents; make an attack roll, if you hit, the opponent must save or be stunned".

That wording would allow a monk who was armed to make a Stunning Attack. The wording in the PHB illustrates the fact that he must make an unarmed attack to stun his opponent. This does not mean that it is different from a standard supernatural ability.

 

[IceBear]

Well, given that a fighter could take a feat and perform a stunning attack as part of a full round attack, then it doesn't make sense not to allow the monk as well. Thus, stunning attack, in my campaign is a supernatural ability that enhances an attack action and is not a standard action in an of itself. Given that there are supernatural abilities that don't take a standard action to activate, and the fact that there is a feat that would be more poweful if you didn't rule this way, to rule against it just seems to be anti-monk

IceBear

 

[hong]

That wording would allow a monk who was armed to make a Stunning Attack.

Fine, add the "unarmed" requirement somewhere in there. The point remains.

 

[Corwin]

I'll have to remember, next time I run my game, to have my monsters "activate" any DR they may have before they are attacked...



I can't believe this is a real debate. Though it is entertaining, I must say.

Now then...

I play a monk currently. I went the strong/trip specialist route. I have Great Throw from OA. I love this feat. I just wish my DM would quit throwing large (and bigger) creatures at us exclusively. It's really cramping my style. Against anything I can't throw, I'm practically useless. We just fought a dragon and my best contributions were to give the others flanking bonuses.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Check out the D20 Mordern SRD. They have cool martial arts feats, but I haven't taken a good look at their Martial Artist class yet.

Spycraft has some kick butt martial art feats as well. I am trying to desgn my marital artis class to replace the monk(who while I think is balanced I also think is boring) I might check out d20 modern as well for inspiration.

 

[Gizzard]

We just fought a dragon and my best contributions were to give the others flanking bonuses.

Welcome to the wonderful world of being a Monk. "Hmmm, the monsters got DR and its stronger than me? I...um...grab a healing potion and ready an action to give it to one of the real fighters if he gets hurt." ;-) Actually, I made about 5 different puny contributions to my fight with the dragon; I was a damage sponge for some of those scary multiple attacks, I sucked up some AoOs so that other characters could maneuver more freely, I applied the Heal skill to a fallen character, I passed around Healing potions, I distracted the Dragon into using the Breath Weapon on me once. Yeah, thats about it. Oh, well, I fought for a round or two. Probably did 3 points of damage after the DR took effect. And gave that precious +2 Flank bonus to a Barbarian who was probably +11 to start. Blah.

As for the Stunning Attack debate, can you imagine how useless this ability would be if you had to give up your multiple attacks for it? As it is, its already extremely marginal due to many big monsters having a good CON and hence a good Fort save. I just throw the Stun into the mix because it is free; even though I generally expect it to fail at least it doesnt cost me anything. If I had to choose to use it instead of multiple attacks, it would never get used. Of course, "special" abilities that never get used are the Monk's forte. "Look at me, I can Deflect Arrows on a 19 or 20". Used exactly twice up to 6th level.

 

[Stalker0]

I forgot to quote what liquidus had qutoed about supernatural abilities, but the last line of it says.

Abilities use their normal action type unless indicated otherwise.

That along with all my common sense puts me on the side that the stun is just part of the attack, and not a standard action.