D&D 5E The Multiverse is back....

[Sammael]

But, Mirtek, what if I actually want to use a baler?

If you're using a balor who's not a demon or who associates with devils, then you're already not using a D&D balor, or else something else is wrong with the picture (the devils are charmed/dominated/geased?). That's an assumption that most players who know what a balor is would make, and that's a pretty fair assumption.

4E's reception and subsequent demise and the resurgence of previous-edition lore in 5E is proof that D&D needs D&D tropes and flavor. It may not be the case for every campaign, but I'm sure WotC didn't just decide to completely revert such a huge 4E premise without solid market research.

 

[jadrax]

That's a contradictory statement. The nature of crystal spheres is that the local conditions (e.g. the solar system) contained within them is unique; entire planes of existence (e.g. a cosmology) don't fall under that category - they're external to the sphere.

Hang on, doesn't Krynnspace have its own cosmology?

 

[Alzrius]

Hang on, doesn't Krynnspace have its own cosmology?

Strictly speaking, no.

In 2E, Krynnspace was a crystal sphere in the Prime Material Plane; it still used the Great Wheel planar arrangement that was the de facto cosmology for all of Second Edition. (It was just that the cosmology as thought of by the natives of Krynn was very, very wrong.)

In 3E, the entire Dragonlance campaign was given its own cosmology, but this eliminated all reference to crystal spheres; as such, there was no "Krynnspace" per se.

 

[Mirtek]

But, Mirtek, what if I actually want to use a baler?

But you said you didn't want to use a balor? A balor is a creature from D&D, a member of a race of fiends called tanar-ri (or commonly just demons), comes from the Abyss, is CE, hates devils, yadayadamoreplanescapefluff ... that's a balor If you want to use a balor, then just take him from the MM and use him. If you not wanting to use that fluff, than you're not using a balor. You're using a homebrew creature that looks like a balor, has the stats of a balor but has whatever fluff you came up with for it.

 

[Hussar]

If you're using a balor who's not a demon or who associates with devils, then you're already not using a D&D balor, or else something else is wrong with the picture (the devils are charmed/dominated/geased?). That's an assumption that most players who know what a balor is would make, and that's a pretty fair assumption.

4E's reception and subsequent demise and the resurgence of previous-edition lore in 5E is proof that D&D needs D&D tropes and flavor. It may not be the case for every campaign, but I'm sure WotC didn't just decide to completely revert such a huge 4E premise without solid market research.

Nope. Not true, see below.

/edit to add - The bolded part is the issue I have. The players are making assumptions based on the idea that Planescape lore is core. But it isn't. It's been allowed to bleed into core and I'd much rather it was taken back out and let be its own thing.

But you said you didn't want to use a balor? A balor is a creature from D&D, a member of a race of fiends called tanar-ri (or commonly just demons), comes from the Abyss, is CE, hates devils, yadayadamoreplanescapefluff ... that's a balor If you want to use a balor, then just take him from the MM and use him. If you not wanting to use that fluff, than you're not using a balor. You're using a homebrew creature that looks like a balor, has the stats of a balor but has whatever fluff you came up with for it.

Really? Are you sure about that? Find me a single mention of tanar-ri in the first edition MM. Find me a single mention anywhere in the 1e PHB, DMG or MM that demons hate devils. Find a single mention in the 3e core rules (not 3.5) where demons and devils are at war or hate each other (any more than demons hate everyone anyway).

See, this is the problem. 2e made all that Planescape stuff core and people get to the point where they no longer distinguish between the Planescape setting specific stuff and what was actually core before TSR decided to mix the peanut butter and chocolate.

So, yup, I can eject the flavour and that's certainly true. And that's what I did for much of 2e and for later era 3e/3.5. Because I do distinguish between simple planar elements and Planescape elements. However, what it means is that every bloody planar supplement has to follow Planescape lore and I find that very strange. Again, it's like every dragon must follow Dragonlance or every vampire must follow Van Richtophen's Guide to Undead. I really, really hope that Planescape fans get all the supplements that they want.

The only thing I'm asking is that Planescape specific lore remain in Planescape where it belongs and stops bleeding over into the core game.

 

[Savage Wombat]

heavy sigh

 

[wingsandsword]

That's a contradictory statement. The nature of crystal spheres is that the local conditions (e.g. the solar system) contained within them is unique; entire planes of existence (e.g. a cosmology) don't fall under that category - they're external to the sphere.

In 2e they DID basically do this with Dark Sun.

Athas was mentioned in some works as being a Crystal Sphere, but it was far, far off explored paths so that it was so remote no spelljamming ship would ever find it, and even if they did it's sphere was impenetrable to most means so short of an artifact or other plot fiat, nobody could get in or out.

The Grey and the Black, those two planes from the Dark Sun cosmology, existed only within the Athasian Crystal Sphere, and without an Astral connection, there was no way to get to the Outer Planes from Athas, just the inner planes.

So they kludged Athas into the broader D&D multiverse by having unique planes to that cosmology exist only within that crystal sphere, and using the altered local transitive planes to restrict/change off-plane access.

 

[Sammael]

It's been allowed to bleed into core and I'd much rather it was taken back out and let be its own thing.

Way, way too late for that. It has become core, whether you like it or not - just like many Greyhawk and FR tropes. You cannot "take something back out" of people's minds. Even if WotC were to completely erase all mention of demon-devil hatred from the 5E Monster Manual - people would STILL consider that a D&D trope. Because it's not just Planescape, it's also in numerous other non-Planescape supplements and adventures throughout three different editions over the past twenty three years.

 

[Hussar]

Way, way too late for that. It has become core, whether you like it or not - just like many Greyhawk and FR tropes. You cannot "take something back out" of people's minds. Even if WotC were to completely erase all mention of demon-devil hatred from the 5E Monster Manual - people would STILL consider that a D&D trope. Because it's not just Planescape, it's also in numerous other non-Planescape supplements and adventures throughout three different editions over the past twenty three years.

Oh, hey, I do agree with you. I mentioned earlier upthread that I'm basically shouting at the wind. TSR rammed Planescape into the core identity of D&D and there's no going back now. I just lament the fact that we have to follow this canon because I find it so incredibly stifling to creativity. It's just not my bag and I was hoping that 5e, like 3e and 4e, would strip most of it out again.

C'est la vie.

 

[Alzrius]

The Grey and the Black, those two planes from the Dark Sun cosmology, existed only within the Athasian Crystal Sphere, and without an Astral connection, there was no way to get to the Outer Planes from Athas, just the inner planes.

That's basically correct, but Defilers & Preservers: The Wizards of Athas tweaked that slightly. It (and The Planewalker's Handbook) basically laid out that the Grey replaced the Border Ethereal within that particular sphere (the nature of the Border Ethereal was that it was also local to each sphere that it touched). The Black was simply contained within the Grey.

Beyond that though, you could still reach the Outer Planes; it was just that there was a 95% failure chance of getting through the Grey to make it to the Astral Plane (as opposed to the 65% failure chance to reach the Inner Planes).

So they kludged Athas into the broader D&D multiverse by having unique planes to that cosmology exist only within that crystal sphere, and using the altered local transitive planes to restrict/change off-plane access.

To be fair, they did that by tweaking the one part of the planar structure that was always local to a particular sphere, so it's not like they made a very large change to the cosmological rules of the multiverse.