The Nature of Change (or, Understanding Edition Wars)

[Scribble]

I really enjoy buying new product. I mean that very seriously.

Sure, I'm not saying you can't be unhappy about no new 3e products from WoTC, just that I don't find the analogy with new coke accurate. In the new coke case, you either had to give up drinking coke, or start liking new coke. In D&D's case, you can keep playing 3e to your hearts content.

Would there be any difference between this, and say if WoTC just stopped making new products for D&D completely? If they can't make products that sell for 3e, not making 4e isn't going to suddenly make them start to sell better.

I just don't get the anger.

Also the OGL pretty much insures that someone somewhere can supply new product for 3e if the demand warrents it.

 

[joethelawyer]

It is the sentiment in your analogy that is at the heart of the edition wars and it is the belief that we are selling turtles that perpetuates them.

If it looks like a turtle and walks like a turtle...

You really think Mearls, Collins, Perkins or Slavicsek, or anyone else on the design team set the rule in the design document "make sure people can convert their old stuff to 4e"? Give me a break. You know many of these people personally and you worked with many of them. You know that they didn't go into the design process with the notion of forcing people to buy new stuff. If anything that was an inherent outcome of the design procees and not an premeditated objective.

Then the design process was flawed. As you said before, your job is to make sure most people stay on the train. Well, by all polls here at least, you lost more than half of them.

You can't blame some of use for our suspicions. The fact that Darrin worked there, and he still has these suspicions, says a lot I think. Also, combine the lousy restrictive GSL that scared many 3pp's away, and the fact that many changes to the game make it so that you can't make 4e compatible products with the OGL, and I don't think his suspicions are unjustified.

 

[pawsplay]

I really enjoy buying new product. I mean that very seriously.

I love it so much, I'm eyeing 3e and 3pp products I passed over before, just because I might enjoy buying it.

 

[Scribble]

I very strongly disagree with this claim.

Playing an RPG requires other players. As 3e falls out of print, fewer and fewer players will being seeking out 3e games. Fewer and fewer will have copies of the 3e books lying around. And it will become harder and harder to find people to play with.

You claim only holds if you have a permanent gaming group and will never need to find new players. For most people, that simply isn't the case. So, while the books may be non-perishable, the player base certainly is.

(This is one of the stated reasons for Paizo publishing Pathfinder RPG: they need to keep the rules in print so that the player base doesn't dry up.)

There are still people playing 2e, there are still people playing 1e, there are still people playing OD&D!

Just because one new system might be more popular now then your favored edition doesn't mean the new system shouldn't exist.

It's always been easier to find a game of D&D then say GURPS, but is that D&D's fault?

And besides... if it IS a new coke thing, then there should be LOTS of players still ready and willing to play 3e shouldn't there?

 

[Scott_Rouse]

deleted

 

[Jeff Wilder]

That only holds if retaining the existing core [audience] was a consideration. Since before the launch of 4e, I have assumed that it was not.

Yes. It took me substantially longer to come to that conclusion. I even started a thread about it, asking why I -- as someone who owns every single 3.5 product released, and thus (I'd assumed) a member of WotC's core audience -- was left behind by WotC and 4E.

And the response I got from the pro-4E folks was, "WotC didn't leave you, you left WotC," or "You're not WotC's core audience." I still find both responses very confusing, but c'est la vie.

 

[resistor]

There are still people playing 2e, there are still people playing 1e, there are still people playing OD&D!

Yes, but that doesn't mean I can find them to play a game

Just because one new system might be more popular now then your favored edition doesn't mean the new system shouldn't exist.

Did I say that?

It's always been easier to find a game of D&D then say GURPS, but is that D&D's fault?

Again, did I say that?

And besides... if it IS a new coke thing, then there should be LOTS of players still ready and willing to play 3e shouldn't there?

For the moment. But, as with such things, the 3e player base will suffer attrition over time, and those lost players are unlikely to be replaced by new ones who will go with the shiny new system.

You questioned why people are angry. The answer is simple: they're afraid. They're afraid that their preferred game is going to be increasingly marginalized, when it used to be common. They're afraid that a few years from now, they won't be able to find a replacement player when Bob moves away, or that they won't be able to find a new copy of the PHB when theirs wears out.

What should worry WotC is that their seems to be a larger-than-expected number of people in this category, AND they are supported by organizing agents (former 3PPs) that can turn these feelings into competition for WotC.

 

[Scribble]

Yes. It took me substantially longer to come to that conclusion. I even started a thread about it, asking why I -- as someone who owns every single 3.5 product released, and thus (I'd assumed) a member of WotC's core audience -- was left behind by WotC and 4E.

And the response I got from the pro-4E folks was, "WotC didn't leave you, you left WotC," or "You're not WotC's core audience." I still find both responses very confusing, but c'est la vie.

Because you have to look at your future clientele.

Your current clientele might love what you're producing right now, but if you're not bringing in a new crop what then?

You'd need to make a chocie then wouldn't you?

Either you:

1. Stay with the status quo, and sell to the current clients as long as you can then close up shop...

or

2. Make some changes to your product in an effort to appeal to the new generation.

Number two risks loosing some of your current clients, but leaves room for future life.

 

[joethelawyer]

Frankly, if WotC wanted to release edition 3.75, and do it it under the OGL, and run it alongside 4E, I think that would take care of the problem. And it isn't like this approach has never been done before; Basic D&D and Advanced D&D coexisted for a long time.

This solution wouldn't be about ending an edition war. It would be about getting the people who got off the train to get back on and I think it would restore a lot of good will towards WotC.

Isn't that what Pathfinder is, essentially? Not to be too snarky, but seriously, hasn't that ship sailed for WOTC already since Paizo decided to do Pathfinder? Though I haven't been involved in Pathfinder's development at all, I periodically go to the boards and read what they are doing and discussing, and quite frankly I don't think WOTC could ever do something like that. Doesn't seem to be their style. They haven't exactly demonstrated that they are open to that level of input in their design process. If they had, I think we would have a 4e which looked totally different than what we have now.

 

[DaveyJones]

Yes, but that doesn't mean I can find them to play a game

i did. it took years of wading thru 2edADnD and d02 fanbois but i was able to form a group.

you just need to be vigilant and have patience.

stick to your guns. plug away.

edit: if you wanna play OD&D(1974) meet me at Gen Con.