The Nature of Change (or, Understanding Edition Wars)

[diaglo]

Did I accidentally log into e-Harmony?

i bought minis from you mang. and you never called me back.

 

[Scribble]

Yes, but that doesn't mean I can find them to play a game



Did I say that?



Again, did I say that?

Maybe not, but it seemed like the answer fit what you were saying?

For the moment. But, as with such things, the 3e player base will suffer attrition over time, and those lost players are unlikely to be replaced by new ones who will go with the shiny new system.

But again, what my original point was, that the "new coke" analogy is still innapropriate.

With new coke, once the supply of old coke was out, I couldn't experience it even if I wanted to. It no longer existed.

All editions of D&D still exist. It might be harder to find new players and get materials sure, but it's not impossible.

The New Coke analogy just doesn't fit.

You questioned why people are angry. The answer is simple: they're afraid. They're afraid that their preferred game is going to be increasingly marginalized, when it used to be common. They're afraid that a few years from now, they won't be able to find a replacement player when Bob moves away, or that they won't be able to find a new copy of the PHB when theirs wears out.

Sure, but then their anger is misplaced. 4e is not the cause of these problems. Not printing 4e isn't going to create new fans of earlier editions.

 

[JohnnyQuest]

Your sister plays Palladium Fantasy! You wrote a fantasy heartbreaker and I fed it to my goat!

Okay, this one is the best yet ...

 

[Scribble]

I believe that you've offered a false dichotomy.

Nevertheless, I also believe that unfortunate adherence to that false dichotomy could explain WotC's choices with regard to gamers like me.

Simplified maybe?

But yeah there could be other reasons too.

Like even if you are 100% happy with the current product, if there's a larger untapped market out there who want to buy D&D but not in it's current form, is it justifiable to continue making the current product?

Also not working for WoTC I can only go by what they said in the past, and that was that table top rpgs were loosing fans to other fantasy simulation and gaming mediums.

 

[Herschel]

Then the design process was flawed. As you said before, your job is to make sure most people stay on the train. Well, by all polls here at least, you lost more than half of them.

You can't blame some of use for our suspicions. The fact that Darrin worked there, and he still has these suspicions, says a lot I think. Also, combine the lousy restrictive GSL that scared many 3pp's away, and the fact that many changes to the game make it so that you can't make 4e compatible products with the OGL, and I don't think his suspicions are unjustified.

Your argument breaks down horribly under scrutiny.

Using this board as a representative cross section of the gaming community is unscientific, anecdotal and flat-out ridiculous. This board is one miniscule, nay, microscopic segment of the gaming population. The WotC boards would be better and still wouldn't pass muster under any reasonable measure.

Using the football boards I frequent as an example, by your definition the VAST majority of sports fans are poltically liberal to very liberal. Demographics have shown otherwise.

Also, the use of the word suspicions vs. suppositions also weakens your stance considerably. Suspicions is construed as an accusation limiting debate vs. suppositions which is just stating a theory where open debate is needed.

I believe the legal term for what has happened to your argument is pwned.

 

[diaglo]

All editions of D&D still exist. It might be harder to find new players and get materials sure, but it's not impossible.

finding new players isn't hard.
finding new material is impossible.

until WotC releases a reprint of OD&D(1974) i will be on the internet.

 

[resistor]

With new coke, once the supply of old coke was out, I couldn't experience it even if I wanted to. It no longer existed.

All editions of D&D still exist. It might be harder to find new players and get materials sure, but it's not impossible.

The New Coke analogy just doesn't fit.

I'm pretty sure I just demonstrated how it does fit. You pointed out that a fan of old Coke would have his horde of old cans to keep him going for a while, but eventually he'll run out. He might be able to buy some more on eBay for the next few years, but eventually the supply will diminish and the price of the few left will skyrocket, effectively cutting him off.

THE SAME THING will happen with 3e players: I have my current gaming group. If I lose a player in the next year or so, I probably won't have too much trouble replacing them. But in five years, it won't be so easy. Once we reach 10, it will probably be pretty difficult.

It is EXACTLY the same thing, stretched over a longer timescale.

Sure, but then their anger is misplaced. 4e is not the cause of these problems. Not printing 4e isn't going to create new fans of earlier editions.

This is just wrong.

If 4e didn't exist, 3e would be being published, new players would be playing it, and 3e fans on the whole would be well off.

If 4e existed in a form that appealed more to 3e fans, they would switch over to it, and have in print books, new players, etc.

The fact that it was created as a replacement for the game they find superior makes it directly responsible for the decline of their preferred system.

 

[Scribble]

finding new players isn't hard.
finding new material is impossible.

until WotC releases a reprint of OD&D(1974) i will be on the internet.

Sure, I meant finding material already written. Like another copy of a PHB or DMG or soemthing.

I wonder if there's enough demand for someone to retro-clone OD&D?

 

[Herschel]

Yes. It took me substantially longer to come to that conclusion. I even started a thread about it, asking why I -- as someone who owns every single 3.5 product released, and thus (I'd assumed) a member of WotC's core audience -- was left behind by WotC and 4E.

And the response I got from the pro-4E folks was, "WotC didn't leave you, you left WotC," or "You're not WotC's core audience." I still find both responses very confusing, but c'est la vie.

I don't think you are the "core audience" for 3.5 Jeff, just like neither of us was really the "core audience" for miniatures as it turns out. You and I may be more passionate and vocal than many others but look at our collections. Going by the other thread, I have a lot more minis than even you do, and I'm by no means anywhere near top dog from the MaxMinis/Hordelings crew. And what percent of those actually played minis tournaments? Or went to Gen Con to play? You said you have EVERY 3.5 product. How much more would you realistically buy? Alternately, how much more would the average gamer buy?

In the group I played with many of the books were owned by someone or other. I noticed in my basic perusing there was a lot of repitition in material between the books to fill them out. If the new edition stayed very close to 3E, how much more would most people really want to buy. PH? DMG? Then what? Prestige classes appeared to have entered the spaghetti realm where anything that might stick was also cloned.

 

[joethelawyer]

Your argument breaks down horribly under scrutiny.

Using this board as a representative cross section of the gaming community is unscientific, anecdotal and flat-out ridiculous. This board is one miniscule, nay, microscopic segment of the gaming population. The WotC boards would be better and still wouldn't pass muster under any reasonable measure.

Using the football boards I frequent as an example, by your definition the VAST majority of sports fans are poltically liberal to very liberal. Demographics have shown otherwise.

Also, the use of the word suspicions vs. suppositions also weakens your stance considerably. Suspicions is construed as an accusation limiting debate vs. suppositions which is just stating a theory where open debate is needed.

I believe the legal term for what has happened to your argument is pwned.

i don't agree with your points as to my conclusions. despite the red font.

and what the does pwned mean anyhow? been seeing that word here for a year now and have no clue what it stands for.