The Nature of Change (or, Understanding Edition Wars)

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Scott,

Just a question, I am a fan of SWSE, and in fact feel it is more along the lines of what I was both expecting and desired in a D&D 4e. In fact I was quite excited in hearing that SWSE was a "preview" for D&D 4e and it actually got me to purchase the 3 core and an extra PHB, sight unseen (though I will admit I haven't purchased any supplements or signed up for DDI)... yet I feel in the end you all went in some pretty divergent, if not downright opposite directions with the final product of 4e. Was there a reason for this, was the concept originally closer to SWSE than it turned out? Just curious.

I can't say as I was not that intimately involved in the design. I'll see if Mearls will come on and answer. I would suspect some of it has to do with SWSE being a different IP and that from it's design came new ideas and even more clarity of what 4e would become.
 

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I can't say as I was not that intimately involved in the design. I'll see if Mearls will come on and answer. I would suspect some of it has to do with SWSE being a different IP and that from it's design came new ideas and even more clarity of what 4e would become.

Thanks for the reply, and hopefully Mike Mearls will come through and shed some insight, it would be greatly appreciated.
 

There's no direct analogy, but there are some points of similarity.

The issue I have with this analogy is that coke, unlike D&D is a consumable product.

If you drank your old coke stock, in order to restock your soda supply you had to buy new coke. If you didn't like New Coke you were out of luck.

3e is not a consumable (unless you have some whacked out play style I'm unaware of.) The 3e you have now will last indefinitely. If you don't like the New 4e coke, you can safely ignore it and go on using your old 3e coke. Your "stock" isn't going to deplete.
 

Emphasis mine. This sums it all up better than I've seen before.
Yeah, that says it well.

My knee-jerk to the OP, was the same "who says there is a change to 4E to cope with?" as others have suggested.

However, I think it does still more or less describe me. It is just for a different change than the OP assumes. The change I have had issue with is going from having the industry leading game with a steady flow of monthly fix product be up the standards I want, to accepting that the new industry leading game does not aim for that target.
 

I think the point was that even if you ask the customers, you end up with products that don't satisfy everyone, and you get edition wars. That's not something "going wrong". That's the nature of the beast - you cannot please everyone all the time.

On this note, I really, really recommend Malcolm Gladwell's talk on what we can learn from spaghetti sauce.

Moral of the story: There is no one best D&D, just like there is no one best spaghetti sauce. Some people like regular spaghetti sauce, some people like spicy spaghetti sauce, and some people like extra chunky, and they often cannot articulate that fact. In all likelihood, similar "clusters" of preferences exist within the D&D community, and we're probably just as bad at articulating them

To continue with the pasta analogy, imagine Roberto's Awesome Pasta Sauce, which is a mildly spicy sauce with moderate chunks. Fans of both spicy sauces and chunky sauces like it. Roberto decides he needs a new recipe, and makes Roberto's NEW Awesome Pasta Sauce. However, this new sauce is a thin spicy sauce, with no chunks. Suddenly the chunky sauce fans feel "left out," or "disenfranchised," or "fired from the target audience." However, lots of new fans who DIDN'T like chunks are also brought into the brand.

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Without defining them, I'd warrant that D&D cluster preferences line up somehow with popular "styles" of game, even if they're not necessarily the ones we would rattle off from introspection. The move from 3e to 4e represents a change in which styles are considered primary/encouraged in the core game. Some ones that were previously encouraged are left out, and some previously unaddressed styles are brought in.

There's nothing inherently good or bad about this; what matters is whether it works. There's a few key assumptions involved in this strategy:

1) The gain in marketshare/income/market growth/whatever from adding new styles will be enough to compensate for losing the old ones. This applies both in the short term and in the long term. With limited data, it appears to me that 4e has succeeded at this in the short term (lots of core rulebooks sold), but may have trouble in the longterm (decent number of people going back to 3e, doubt about the longterm investment of new players).

2) The ill-will generated by dropping certain styles won't have a significant impact on future marketshare/income/market growth/whatever. IMO, this is the one where 4e has done poorly. The GSL debacle created rallying points (former 3PPs) for the left-out clusters. I would hypothesize that a more lenient GSL that brought in more of the 3PPs would have have prevented the "opposition" from materializing as much as it had. A lot of non-4e-fans might have come around to it through house-ruled versions put out by 3PPs. (Fourth edition rules, third edition feel?)
 

3e is not a consumable (unless you have some whacked out play style I'm unaware of.) The 3e you have now will last indefinitely. If you don't like the New 4e coke, you can safely ignore it and go on using your old 3e coke. Your "stock" isn't going to deplete.
I really enjoy buying new product. I mean that very seriously.
 

The issue I have with this analogy is that coke, unlike D&D is a consumable product.

If you drank your old coke stock, in order to restock your soda supply you had to buy new coke. If you didn't like New Coke you were out of luck.

3e is not a consumable (unless you have some whacked out play style I'm unaware of.) The 3e you have now will last indefinitely. If you don't like the New 4e coke, you can safely ignore it and go on using your old 3e coke. Your "stock" isn't going to deplete.

This isn't exactly true...the number of 3e books will slowly decline and disappear... the funny thing I find is that many 3.5 books (especially the core books) aren't really going for rock bottom prices anymore since the actual release of 4e. I think this may be why many are anticipating Pathfinder. I wonder what would happen if WotC made the 3.5 books POD...
 

3e is not a consumable (unless you have some whacked out play style I'm unaware of.) The 3e you have now will last indefinitely. If you don't like the New 4e coke, you can safely ignore it and go on using your old 3e coke. Your "stock" isn't going to deplete.

I very strongly disagree with this claim.

Playing an RPG requires other players. As 3e falls out of print, fewer and fewer players will being seeking out 3e games. Fewer and fewer will have copies of the 3e books lying around. And it will become harder and harder to find people to play with.

You claim only holds if you have a permanent gaming group and will never need to find new players. For most people, that simply isn't the case. So, while the books may be non-perishable, the player base certainly is.

(This is one of the stated reasons for Paizo publishing Pathfinder RPG: they need to keep the rules in print so that the player base doesn't dry up.)
 

There was really no need for such a huge departure from the previous editions, people still would have bought it because it's D&D. This brings me to the point that the true reason for making the game so different was to eliminate backwards compatability. If people can no longer use their old stuff, they're forced to buy new stuff, which is where we come back to selling the people what you have rather than giving them what they want. This strategy all falls down due to the fact that gamers are smarter than that and they have other options. Lots of them.



Bingo.
 


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