The Nature of Change (or, Understanding Edition Wars)

[Azgulor]

Yep.

...which was another silly argument. 3e also got "slammed" for being too videogamey. If WoW was around at the time, I'm sure 3e would have gotten "slammed" for being just like Warcraft, too. It's all pretty stupid and reductionist.

While I sit in awe of your editing skills, I never said it was a good argument. I was, once again, merely providing an example.

 

[Shadeydm]

So a game construct that allows you to survive multiple sword blows is acceptable but a game construct that allows you to survive multiple sword blows but requires a short rest between each blow destroys realism?

I would say both constructs shove realism and verisimilitude aside to allow for a good game. And calling one less realistic than the other is the pot calling the kettle black.

Dude I wasn't insulting you or your game, I was trying to make Pawsplay laugh.

I play 4E I didn't say anything about realism or being more real than version x. Seriously get a grip man.

My least favorite thing about 4E is definetly it's rabid fanbase.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If you got there through no fault of your own, not so great.

That's when a player more familiar with the system- the DM perhaps- should speak up and inform the player.

I don't design anyone's PC for them...and 3Ed recognizes that adults should be able to make their own PC design decisions. But 4Ed doesn't trust gamers the same way 3Ed did.

So you can't make your own PC design decisions in 4e? I see plenty of options...

Of course I can, but I can't choose something some would consider suboptimal if I should choose, even though it might have been fun.

As for options- they do exist, but they are fewer in number than 3.X. The one I routinely point out is that most of my PCs in previous editions were multiply multiclassed. 4Ed's truncated multiclassing system means my preferred D&D PC design choices get headed off at the pass.

 

[Cadfan]

The point is that in 3.X, pretty much your only meaningful sources of healing came directly or indirectly from spellcasters. They go comatose, you have no magical medics.

So your problem is with Second Wind and the ability to self heal without magic? If that's the case, you should probably stop claiming that healing surges bother you. Its not what you're talking about, and its confusing everyone else. We're all trying to figure out how having a maximum amount of healing per day, and healing amounts based primarily on the recipient's stamina instead of the healer's skill, turns hit points into a little green bar over a character's head. And we're coming up dry.

For what its worth, I can see having a problem with non magical self healing. If you envision damage as always involving visible physical injury (instead of nebulous movie style injuries like being battered around and then shaking it off), then any healing needs to actually close wounds and remove arrows. 4e hand waves this, allows healing to represent regained determination, and just assumes that you're doing whatever needs done in some sort of nebulous down time. I do see this as a meaningful break from previous editions, and one which people might validly dislike.

Personally I prefer to handwave these sorts of details, but then again, I was part of the two person crusade to have arrows handwaved just like a wizard's components.

3e also had crazy unrealistic non magical healing, but it never came up so no one cared.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So your problem is with Second Wind and the ability to self heal without magic? If that's the case, you should probably stop claiming that healing surges bother you. Its not what you're talking about, and its confusing everyone else. We're all trying to figure out how having a maximum amount of healing per day, and healing amounts based primarily on the recipient's stamina instead of the healer's skill, turns hit points into a little green bar over a character's head. And we're coming up dry.

Oh really? Correct me then. Oh wait...

4Ed Wiki
A healing surge heals approximately 1/4th your max health when you use it.

Escape: 4th Ed D&D - Healing Surges
1. You can spend a healing surge as a standard action to heal yourself up to 1/4 of your hit-points through an action called a "second wind". So, essentially, any character can sacrifice one standard action in an encounter to self-heal. You can also use healing surges when resting between encounters (one can't help but think of pausing to 'mana up' in WoW between pulls)

So, yes, I still continue to see the little bar gaining a little green...

3e also had crazy unrealistic non magical healing, but it never came up so no one cared.

Where?

 

[Umbran]

An other example of an irrational argument fathered by an emotional reaction to the new edition.

Dude, irony. In the context of this thread, there's absolutely no reason for you to think this sort of approach is going to be constructive. You could hardly have been more dismissive.

Folks, in general, if you aren't going to treat your fellow posters and their opinions with respect, just don't post.

 

[Cadfan]

So, yes, I still continue to see the little bar gaining a little green...

Right, I'm sure you do. It just doesn't make sense that you do.

I still think that your real objection is non magical self healing, and you're just blaming healing surges either due to inaccurate terminology, or a tendency to lump things together. I mean, you basically just quoted a bunch of information confirming my suspicions.

Where?

Healing with a doctor and a full day's rest fixed 4 hit points per level per day. That's 48 hit points per day on a level 12 character.

A level 12 barbarian with a constitution of 22 and who rolled 12s for every single level up will have 216 hit points. He can heal from zero in 4.5 days.

A more plausible barbarian will heal from zero in about 3 days.

A level 12 wizard with a constitution of 22 and who rolled 4s for every single level up will have 120 hit points. He'll heal in 2.5 days.

A more plausible wizard will heal from zero to maximum in less than 2 days.

The number stays nearly constant across your career, except for if or when your constitution score increases.

Its not particularly realistic to go from "bleeding out and going to die unless you get medical attention NOW" to "doin' fine!" in 2 days. Or even 3. Real world medicine certainly can't accomplish that.

But this didn't create meaningful problems in 3e because few people used non magical healing.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Ask yourself: How often do characters in RAW 3.x go into fights without being fully healed, or at least at 90% hp? Given that usually the first purchase is a wand of CLW (which can be used by more than half of all character classes) you observe exactly the same hp trajectory in both games. The only difference is the fluff. And I prefer "the heroes gather their breath, bind their wounds grit their teeth and press on" to "the bard touches each of you with his wand six or seven times each and everyone is right as rain again." But tastes differ.

On the ball, with a slight adjustment.

 

[LostSoul]

...but the second wind is an attempt to emulte action-adventure fiction (most notably in film & tv), not Mortal Kombat.

Which would make it a simulationist game mechanic!

I think the use of the Healing Surge is to restrict the amount of healing in any particular encounter, forcing meaningful (gamist) choices on the players - who do you heal, and when? It also can provide more meaningful (gamist, maybe simulationist) choices when you don't have secure access to an Extended Rest.

Wandering monsters work well in 4E.

 

[PaulofCthulhu]

4Ed's design favoring a mechanical preference for balance is inherently more restrictive. A sub-optimal PC is much less possible. The 4Ed designers tightening of PC design restrictions (especially in multiclassing) amounts to a lack of trust in player decisions.

I do recall when playing 3.5E, being hauled over (from near & far) for not 'optimising' my character, still managed to muddle through though.

In our 4th ed games we just kept getting TPK'd so often it was a turn off (and my favourite game is Call of Cthulhu).

So, does that mean in 'balanced' game design that that balance must be predicated against optimised characters (or in 4e - whole parties) - and if you don't that doesn't bode well?

Does this make min/max a requirement for successful play? I hope not!