The Nature of "Lawful"

What kind of Act was it?

  • Lawful. The man acted according to well-established beliefs.

    Votes: 61 31.6%
  • Chaotic. The man murdered someone and broke the law.

    Votes: 76 39.4%
  • Neither. Killing is Neutral.

    Votes: 29 15.0%
  • Other. (Please explain below.)

    Votes: 27 14.0%

Knoxgamer said:
This is only a true statement if it is the case that following a personal code of behavior is not a good act.

In the case of the lawful person, breaking the law of a good society I view as a neutral to evil act depending on the circumstances. In this scenario he follows his personal code (killing a paedophile), but breaks the law of a good country (committing murder). Since the killing was for the good of society and not for self advancement, I would give the benefit of the doubt and call it neutral, but since it is on violation of the law I would not let it pass as good. The behaviour though, I see that as lawful as it is consistent with the personal code. To me lawful is not a specific code, but the one that the individual aspires to.
 

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This is only a true statement if it is the case that following a personal code of behavior is not a good act.

As it is, since he just plain killed the culprit.
A good character would have tried out all other possible means of solving the situation (starting with trying to redeem the poor soul), resorting to violence and bloodshed only in self-defence.

Being good doesn't come from slaying evil (or if it would, the strongest Orc in the Tribe would always have a bunch of Paladin Levels to his name).
 

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
But there's your problem. That's NOT the D&D definition of the ALIGNMENT Lawful. That's the definition of the word Lawful. There is a big difference between the two.

One can be a very Lawful person and still break the Laws of a society. Think about it: A Lawful Good(or evil) warrior is in a Lawful Evil(or good if you switch them) province. The Laws set down by the ruler are unjust, cruel, and meant only to give the ruler more money/power/etc. The Lawful Good character is NOT performing a Chaotic action to go against these laws, even being fully away of them.*

Yes, but a lawful character tries to use the established hierarchy first. I think lawfulness implies a belief that humans generally need to be organized, and need laws for soceity to function. So a lawful character has some fundamental respect for the concept of law. I think, especially in this city, where pedophiles are put to death, he was chaotic, he violated a law that went along with his own beliefs- ostensibly just to avoid the hassle of a trial - but a trial is the process of law - so the character violated the process of law for the sake of convienience (or anger), both of which are chaotic actions. Now, a LG character in a LE town with a supreme despot-for-life who made all laws, I could see them then possibly leading the resistance, but it would be an option of last resort, as opposed to CG, who might decide to overthrow the ruler as soon as they hear the laws.
 

Yes, but a lawful character tries to use the established hierarchy first. I think lawfulness implies a belief that humans generally need to be organized, and need laws for soceity to function.

Not necessarily. Lawful (in it's non-good incarnations) can also implies control, order and definiteness, as well as focus to the point of obsession.
By walking away from the pedophile and not taking action, the fighter from the example would have left the case up the the local authorities, judges and regulations, possibly happenstance, fortune on the culprits part or (by another name) possible chaos.
I admit though, that "taking the law into one's own hands" does lean toward the lawful-evil side.
 

The act was lawful in the lawless place as it upheld his veiws, plus no one else was going to arrest, or deal with the pedophile. However where the second case happened it wasn't in the fighters need to kill them, so it was chaotic.
 

Public executions are lawful, private executions are not.

All of the murders were chaotic because the criminals, in every case, didn't view their own lives as forfeit to some random schmoe. The last case is more lawful than the other cases, as the criminal was in fact a criminal with forfeit life -- as opposed to a cretinous pervert deserving of death out in the wildlands, but that's a different matter.

Law exists -- the code exists -- to provide a standard that people can agree to. If there's a law that says "Don't murder people," then I expect that people aren't going to come up and murder me in the same way that I'm not going to wander around murdering them. Thus far it's worked out pretty well. ;) So inasmuch as people don't expect to be murdered, murder is unlawful. Inasmuch as they don't expect to be stolen from, stealing is unlawful. Inasmuch as they don't expect to be accosted by dirty old men when they're 5... you get the picture.

It's not enough to live your life with a strict discipline. If your discipline is "I do what I want," then you're chaotic, even if you always do what you want, just as your guiding principle says. The discipline has to be extended to your relationships with other people -- much in the same way that Devils draw up contracts with mortals. Bad contracts, yes, but the mortal gets to keep a copy and it's their own problem if they're not smart enough to read through the legalese.

That said, had the fighter publicly challenged the offenders to a duel (or duels, I suppose) for their crimes against sentient peoples such that everybody in earshot understood that the basic tenent of "Don't murder people" was still being upheld (inasmuch as they could still walk down a dark alley without taking +4d6 sneak attack damage) and that the forthcoming bloodletting was to resolve a different instance of the basic rule of "don't be a perverted coot." But that's not what I'm hearing -- I'm hearing that the murders were private and all the public may have found was a body in the backyard and an extra space at the dinner table with no reason given for why.

Bear in mind that a critical part of the judicial system (in the US, anyway) is -- supposed to be, anyway -- a public trial such that the public, not just the criminal, judge, and executioner, all understand how the laws of society were broken and how the judgement will bring things closer to order.

Hence, for our D&D purposes, I'd have to say that public executions are lawful, private executions are not.

::Kaze (is never content just throwing $.02 in...)
 

DonaldRumsfeldsTofu said:
In my opinion, killing is nuetral on the lawful-chaoitc axis. It's purely a matter of good and evil.

Interesting perspective.
I shall state here, for posterity, my own opinion that killing is strictly neutral on the good-evil axis. Motives for the killing are needed to move it one way or the other, lacking motives it's just neutral.

Of course, I'll agree that without laws against it it's neutral on the law/chaos axis as well, but this scenario specified a law against it. I'll go further to point out that many law sets have this as something that is not allowed. However in essence I agree, without a law to put it one way or the other it is neutral. But to be fair, on the law chaos axis that is true about absolutely every action or inaction.
 

I think I remember that thread.

I'd say that it's most likely neutral or chaotic. He lived originally in a lawless country, your example did not give any set of laws that he was living by, rather stated that he came up with his own.

Now, he could be lawful under many of the definitions of lawful, but under some of those definitions he has performed an act that is definitely non-lawful. He has broken a law. But then again, with other definitions of the term he has performed an act that is extremely lawful, he has upheld a law when it's potentially damaging to him.

It's unlikely that he's chaotic. He is acting in a consistent and ordered manner. And he does not seem to be going against the laws of the land simply because they are there, nor to be challenging them.

I'd probably go with neutral, based on the description of the person as following a strict code, coming from a lawless land, acting to defend "beliefs" (note: not acting to uphold "laws" or to enforce a code)

Now, a similar action *could* be considered lawful if that person was living by a code of laws... But your example stated that he "feels" one way. Sure, it also says that he lives a strict, ordered life, which seems to say lawful... but unless he's formulated his feelings into actual laws he can't say that he's following law, he's instead following his feelings in disregard of law, as would be the custom in a lawless land, a neutral or chaotic land.

If the character DID have a law set, however, that alters my opinion entirely. If, say, he came not from a lawless country but one with a law set wherein he would be allowed to execute a pedophile, and then moved to one with a different law set. Or if he lived in a "lawless" country but was of a particular order (perhaps even a paladin) wherein he was expected to BE the law, then he went to this new country... I'd say he could be lawful still.

Of course, Jooly Giant said:
"In my games lawful alignement does NOT equal "law-abiding"! That's just one of many possible "lawful"'s... "

And I see that as a correct interpretation of lawful.

And DragonLancer said:
"In my eyes, its a chaotic act because despite his lawful attitude (whether for good, neutrality or evil) he willfully went against the laws of the nation he was in to follow his own personal path."

Which is ALSO a correct interpretation of lawful.

The moral of this story? Obviously it's that "lawful" is a chaotic term, lawful is indeed a subset of chaos. But we can't usually look that deeply at things, so I recommend that each individual character pick one of these definitions of lawful (or a different one if needed) and then stick with it. It can be different for each character, but it has to remain consistent within each individual character.

For more examples, my view on Knoxgamer's opinions:
(I'm aware that you don't want "Paladin", so I'll respond as if it were instead "Person who is meant to be lawful")

"The answer depends upon whether or not the Paladin was aware of the laws. If the Paladin was aware of the laws, then he willfully defied the established authority of the land and performed a chaotic act."

This is one interpretation of lawful. And a good interpretation. But not the only one. It's also chaotic for a character to follow the laws of the land regardless of his own internal laws. And lawful for a person to maintain his own laws in spite of other people's "opinions" (laws).

"Part of being lawful is respecting traditional authority. A character that behaved solely according to his own code, without regard for the world around him would best be described as chaotic."

And part of being lawful is being consistent. Changing what laws you follow as you travel from land to land is the height of chaos, and any character who did this could logically and truthfully be labeled chaotic. A character who behaved solely according to the world around him, without regard for a set code, would best be described as chaotic.

I'll point out here also the use of the term "traditional". It can be easily argued that the code that the character started with is the traditional one, and any subsequent rules are new, or not traditional.

"If, however, the Paladin was ignorant of this law then he has performed a lawful act by acting in accordance with his own code lacking the guidance of an authority."

If, on the other hand, the character knows of the local laws, and did not enforce his traditional law as indeed is what that law states he must do, he has performed a chaotic act... an act that violates "traditional" law.

"To come at it from another perspective, a Vigilante is a person who enforces their own penalties for social transgressions without regard to the penalties established by the community (laws). While a Vigilante would have a code that she lives by, she is still Chaotic due to her direct violation of the laws of her community."

Completely true as well... which is why I would define the above scenario as chaotic as it was described. The character was enforcing his own belief, not his own law. In fact, it was explicitly stated that the character had no actual law to follow other than personal belief. Now, it was implied that there might be more, but without more definition, without codified law that belief isn't enough to hold the force of law, hence enforcement of those beliefs would be vigilantism not lawfulness.

I have to also add about Mr. Kaize's statement that:
"Public executions are lawful, private executions are not."
This, of course, depends on the law. It is conceivable that some countries could have laws where public executions are unlawful, but private ones are lawful. Or to say, this "fact" is merely a statement on some laws, not on Law.

Most appropriately interesting, and something I really wanted to end on, is the opinion posted by Le Shenron:
"A character who says "I am the law!" is definitely chaotic, not lawful..."
Which I find most appropriately ironic because, if not for a person (or group of persons) saying "I am the law" (We are the law), then there would be no such thing as lawful. Hence the apparent belief expressed here about Law's inherent chaotic-ness.
 
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ARandomGod said:
Interesting perspective.
I shall state here, for posterity, my own opinion that killing is strictly neutral on the good-evil axis. Motives for the killing are needed to move it one way or the other, lacking motives it's just neutral.
...killing someone without a reason is neutral? Are you sure?
 

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