The New Dune movie *holly &^%$ this could be good or bad*

[Hypersmurf]

... except that the Flash Gordon movie was much, much better...

This isn't a fair comparison.

The Flash Gordon movie's much, much better than everything, so this line doesn't make your point for you

-Hyp.

 

[Rhuvein]

I'd like to see a good movie treatment of Dune for sure. But what a challenge.

I didn't care for the original movie for many years, but have grown to like it much more. These days I tend to separate in my mind, a book and the movie version of it. Realizing that it's very difficult to make a movie that covers every facet of a book, I can judge it on it's own and like it or not.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Add to that the fact that they were so fanatical in their beliefs that they were borderline insane, and had lifespans many times longer than most humans because of melange (the ones who did not otherwise die from the unforgiving nature of Arrakis, that is) and you had the makings of a superarmy to rival Shaddam's. Which. of course, was the point.

You don't need Wuxia to show the Fremen. They were lithe, wiry, fast and utterly merciless. They were fanatics. Messianic fanaticism and the desert was, ultimately, the entire point to the novel.

Exactly.

I remember the part in the book where the Sadaukar are carrying out their pogrom against the Fremen and one of them was reporting back, shaken by an attack on a refuge of women and children where the women had thrown their children onto the Sadaukar blades as they attacked to blunt them and give the Fremen an advantage.

Not wuxia, not the wierding way, but lithe, fast merciless fanatics.

 

[Grue]

Exactly.

I remember the part in the book where the Sadaukar are carrying out their pogrom against the Fremen and one of them was reporting back, shaken by an attack on a refuge of women and children where the women had thrown their children onto the Sadaukar blades as they attacked to blunt them and give the Fremen an advantage.

Not wuxia, not the wierding way, but lithe, fast merciless fanatics.

Just screws with my suspension of disbelief. While FH wasn't a hard science fiction writer by a long stretch, Dune isn't a fantasy novel. I can swallow the Great Schools as a end result of the Butlerian Jihad... enhanced mental abilities, prana bindu, the voice, etc. I can even ignore the fact Frank doesn't seem to have a clue how a computer works (otherwise the Jihad would also ban servoks as well, and most probably distrans)... fortunately he never really gets into that area.

Fremen fighting prowess... just annoying and silly. The Sarduakar are supposed to be roughly equal... if maybe they've become a bit lax and poltroons in their long service to the Golden Lion Throne. As far as the Landsraad is concerned they are the supreme warmachine of the Imperium. They're also fanatics. Shields have made 'modern' style warfare obsolete (mostly...the Baron Harkonen gloats over use of his secret weapon... artillery). Wars are fought hand to hand. Since a lasgun interaction with a holtzman field can result in an explosion in the kiloton range, I would also assume the Sarduakar also know how to fight with and without shields.

Enter the Fremen. Paul beats one in personal combat (Jamis in a knife fight) fairly early in the novel. Paul was trained by his House's Swordmaster (Duncan Idaho is regarded highly by the Sarduakar in the novel I believe... equal or slightly better than the best Sarduakar). The Fremen are described as people raised in a harsh unforgiving enviroment, with significant times of shortages and deprivation. At that point I gotta put on the blinders (and why I prefer wierding modules better than Xena warrior fremen for a scifi movie). Harsh low caloric conditions don't produce humans that are better warriors. They produce smaller, leaner, and presumably physically weaker people able to survive on less calories (and less water... smaller people also can handle heat better... considering the ecology research FH put into the novel... heh).

Fighting skill.... lets say the Fremen have slightly superior skill (remember the novel places them roughly equal). Anybody that's done any UC will tell you size and strength matter and count for more... the bigger guy has the advantage if they are roughly equal in skill. If one highly skilled man is facing off against two moderately skilled fighters, a UC instructor should tell you to run the heck away if you can (unless the two you're facing are incompetents) or go for the sucker kill if you can't to even up the odds.

So we have presumably roughly equal Sardaukar (terror troops whose mercilessness is renowned), fanatics willing to die in Imperial service, getting their butts handed to them by women and children in Dune.

 

[Grue]

Add to that the fact that they were so fanatical in their beliefs that they were borderline insane, and had lifespans many times longer than most humans because of melange

Just to point out that the only old Fremen that makes a appearance in Dune is the Sietch's Reverend Mother. And she passes on to Jessica (and her water to the tribe)because she knows she won't survive the bugout. Between the Kynes passages and some of the other tidbits, hard times for the Fremen seem to have only recently become a rarity among them by the start of Dune.

There's no indication of centennial plus Fremen in the original besides the useful Reverend Mother. Slow down I think it was likely your water would be reclaimed for the good of the tribe. Stilgar I believe is mentioned to have expected a shorter life span (expecting to eventually be replaced by a challenger) and I don't believe Harrah was too old. Three sons I think to two previous husbands(?). Considering the harsh conditions and Fremen survival discipline, population control would be high on the list... especially if Fremen are living hundreds of years. So a high turnover rate with centennial Fremen a rarity I think is closer to the mark.

 

[Steel_Wind]

The spice was an anagathic. It made you live significantly longer. That is one of the reasons it was so valuable (besides prescience, of course).

This was referred to in the original Dune, and clarified in God Emperor of Dune as I recall - though it's been a very long while since I read God Emperor.

As for saying "many times longer" I may have exagerated there, but it certainly had a measurable impact on the length of your life according to the books.

Alya's perpetual youth reached beyond the influence of the spice and was based on cellular metabolic control (which was considered a perversion of life).

 

[Grue]

The spice was an anagathic. It made you live significantly longer. That is one of the reasons it was so valuable (besides prescience, of course).

This was referred to in the original Dune, and clarified in God Emperor of Dune as I recall - though it's been a very long while since I read God Emperor.

As for saying "many times longer" I may have exagerated there, but it certainly had a measurable impact on the length of your life according to the books.

Alya's perpetual youth reached beyond the influence of the spice and was based on cellular metabolic control (which was considered a perversion of life).

I'm rereading God Emperor now. It's the first place FH actually writes that it will extend a lifespan to multiple lifespans (in the hundreds) that I've seen\recall in the course of rereading the series.

I think he's kinda nonspecific until he gets to that point. I do remember thinking reading Messiah and Children that Stilgar definitely seemed to be feeling his age. I think it's roughly 10 years after the events of Dune for DM (Paul is in his 30's), and add 16 years or so for CoD. Maybe he changed his mind by God Emperor. Not a hard science fiction writer by any stretch, but despite the 'magic' elements he does put in I'd still class him around Philip K Dick (free will is one of the biggie themes). Too bad the prequels are utter skiffy.

 

[Storm Raven]

Enter the Fremen. Paul beats one in personal combat (Jamis in a knife fight) fairly early in the novel. Paul was trained by his House's Swordmaster (Duncan Idaho is regarded highly by the Sarduakar in the novel I believe... equal or slightly better than the best Sarduakar).

By the time he fights Jamis, Paul has also trained in thw wierding way of battle - a special combination of Bene Gesserit training and highly advanced swordfighting techniques. He is far far superior to a Sardaukar by that point. (So is Idaho, actually. In later books, you find out that when Idaho died fighting to buy Paul and Jessica time to get away in Dune, he killed something like 17 Sardaukar before being killed).

The Fremen are described as people raised in a harsh unforgiving enviroment, with significant times of shortages and deprivation. At that point I gotta put on the blinders (and why I prefer wierding modules better than Xena warrior fremen for a scifi movie). Harsh low caloric conditions don't produce humans that are better warriors. They produce smaller, leaner, and presumably physically weaker people able to survive on less calories (and less water... smaller people also can handle heat better... considering the ecology research FH put into the novel... heh).

The theme of the book is that harsh conditions produce tougher people. Training alone cannot make a person a superior warrior in the Dune universe, people have to spend their entire lives being tempered for the job. (A theme that runs through a lot of Dune = human perfection has reached such a level that most people must spend their entire lives, or even mutiple generations, to excel at their chosen work). The concept of "Amtal" or testing something to its breaking point, is talked about a fair amount in the book.

(One way that Paul is exceptional is that he is good enough to be good at several things, something that almost no one else in the book can accomplish).

Also, remember that the Sardaukar are supposed to be trained in similar conditions to the Fremen on Salusa Secendus - which is described as a hell world. So any "low calorie harsh conditions" are likely to be shared by them.

Fighting skill.... lets say the Fremen have slightly superior skill (remember the novel places them roughly equal).

Until, of course, Paul shows up and shows them better ways to fight.

On its own terms, the book makes sense. Of course, the book assumes that humans can be trained to work as fast as (or better than) computers, people can see the future, and navigating the stars requires the use of a spice found only on one world. Saying "people raised in the desert doesn't make people tougher" is simply not taking the book's premises as presented. In the book, it does.