The (new) Immortals Handbook Thread

[Upper_Krust]

Hi UK!

Hiya mate!

Indeed, I did not understand correctly. I thought the caster would get spells from level 1 to 9, then 12 33rd-level slots. Even after you explained it correctly, I think the lowest level spell being 24th is a bit overkill. Why would I use a 125d6 shocking grasp on a CR2 Ogre when a 3rd-level 10d6 fireball will kill it anyway.

...but if you are a 66th-level Spellcaster what the heck are you doing fighting a CR2 Ogre. You should be fighting Vaprak himself (Ogre/Troll Demigod).

Of course, against a creature with an appropriate CR, only the high-level metamagic spells will be useful, but for most envounters with non-epic NPC or monsters, spells from level 1 to 9, hell!, for that matter, from 10 to 22 too, can perfectly do the trick.

Well first off the example was for a 133HD Elder God Angelic Super-Galaxian.

I find it strange, especially from you who advocate play between high-level characters and low-lewel NPC, that you would sacrifice normal spell levels.

But I haven't sacrificed anything. The Improved Metamagic Capacity feat does not force you to add metamagic to spells, simply gives you the option.

As to advocating play between high and low level characters I think you have a mistaken impression of my original comments; which I am sure were either about staggering divine power so as to not create a flawed two tiered system like WotCs Deities & Demigods, or making non-epic-level gaming still relevant to immortals through worship points.

Interaction does not always mean combat, but power is still power. A 30th-level wizard vs. a horde of orcs is still a miss-match. Just like a greater god vs. a party of 30th-level characters.

The Immortals Handbook is not dumbing or powering down greater gods so they can fight sub-epic characters. Its about making the actions and lives of non-epic characters still relevant to deities with regards worship, politics and so forth.

On another matter, congrats to Liverpool for their victory on Juventus, too bad they can't seem to find a goalkeeper who doesn't make one stupid mistake in every Champions' League, especially when he's good enough to do saves likes others he did yesterday.

Tell Isabelle I said

Hey Impeesa matey!

I would think it would be a trivial matter to add in that the caster may forego some or all of the increased effect if they choose.

Exactly.

 

[Nifelhein]

It seems you moved the spell slots up a level for every feat taken, I like that a lot easier and more simple, but would then the new 2nd level slots allow for a normal 2nd levels spell? Because if ends up that way it just rocks in bookkeeping, easyness and also, i doubt power wise it is a problem, someone with all spells slots being higher than 9th level ends up having no need to memorize spells lwoer than that level.

i like it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Nifelhein mate!

It seems you moved the spell slots up a level for every feat taken, I like that a lot easier and more simple,

Not exactly. Nothing is moved as such. Simply that you get free metamagic slots.

Think about the Automatic Quicken Spell epic feat. If you take this you can automatically quicken any spell of 1st-3rd level. You don't have to pay for the quicken spell with spell slots.

Improved Metamagic Capacity works similar to that. You can automatically apply +1 spell slot worth of ANY metamagic (you have) to ANY spell you have.

If you take the feat twice you get +2 free spell slots.

You don't actually gain any more spells.

but would then the new 2nd level slots allow for a normal 2nd levels spell?

I'm not sure what you mean here mate?

Any 2nd level spells you have are still 2nd level spells. Simply that you get to add free metamagic to them depending on the number of Improved Metamagic Capacity feats you have.

Also remember that you still get to apply metamagic as normal. SO you could take a 2nd-level spell and add +7 Metamagic spell slots - making it take up a 9th-level spell slot. THEN you could add your Improved Metamagic Capacity on top of that.

So the Cherubim 66th-level cleric could cast an enlarged, empowered, maximised searing light (3rd-level spell) as a 9th-level spell slot. THEN add a further x12 empowerments (due to Metamagic Freedom and 24 Improved Metamagic Capacity feats) for 600 damage against a Nosferatu prince.

Because if ends up that way it just rocks in bookkeeping, easyness and also, i doubt power wise it is a problem, someone with all spells slots being higher than 9th level ends up having no need to memorize spells lwoer than that level.

i like it.

 

[Fieari]

As I'm still slightly unsure of what you mean, let me try and explain it as I currently see what you are saying.

You have the feats Enlarge and Quicken. You take Improved Metamagic Capacity once. Now, all your level 1 spells are Enlarged and Quickened for free. Or perhaps all your level 1 spells are Enlarged OR Quickened for free?

You take Improved Metamagic Capacity again. Now, all your level 2 spells are Enlarged and/or Quickened for free (Or perhaps Doubly Enlarged* for Free, not quickened?).

Or is it that if you take Improved Metamagic Capacity, all your level 1 spells are just Enlarged for free. Taken twice, level 1 spells are doubly enlarged*, level 2 spells are just plain enlarged for free. Taken 4 times, level 1 spells are quickened for free (or enlarged x4* for free).

How does this work?

*Assuming you have Metamagic Freedom to back it up.

 

[Sledge]

Hmmm I may try throwing this into the game next time we do get our epics playing. Balancewise it might have to be tweaked a bit for this campaign, as we have a bit more feats than I think is normal at level 42.

 

[Nifelhein]

Hi UK!

I just got it wrong, like the feat would make your slots go up a level, making you have only slots of 2nd through 10th level available after getting it, still seems easy enough for me.

Anyway, I got it now, but what level are those spell slots gained, that is the picture I did not get.

 

[poilbrun]

But I haven't sacrificed anything. The Improved Metamagic Capacity feat does not force you to add metamagic to spells, simply gives you the option.

Of course not, but I still think adding to the power of spells while lowering their number is not always a fair trade-off.

As to advocating play between high and low level characters I think you have a mistaken impression of my original comments; which I am sure were either about staggering divine power so as to not create a flawed two tiered system like WotCs Deities & Demigods, or making non-epic-level gaming still relevant to immortals through worship points.

Interaction does not always mean combat, but power is still power. A 30th-level wizard vs. a horde of orcs is still a miss-match. Just like a greater god vs. a party of 30th-level characters.

The Immortals Handbook is not dumbing or powering down greater gods so they can fight sub-epic characters. Its about making the actions and lives of non-epic characters still relevant to deities with regards worship, politics and so forth.

My 17th level party (only 3 players - 1 fighter/sorcerer/spellsword, 1 rogue/duelist and 1 wizard/cleric/mystic theurge) and their 3 15th level cohorts (1 fighter/wizard/spellsword, 1 ranger/arcane archer, 1 cleric/wizard/mystic theurge) encountered an orc horde. Even though individually they were low-level, they still had problems, simply because they had to keep their high-level spells for the time when they would fight the higher-level NPC who were behind the orc attack.

Put that into perspective for a 60th level wizard. He needs to go down in Hell to retrieve an agent of good from the clutches of an Archduke. On the way there, he will encounter tons of lower CR devils. Should he burn 24th level spells to fight against Bearded Devils or keep them when he will face Pit Fiends or the Archduke himself?

Furthermore, I'm afraid that you would only get to see a couple of spells. Why would anyone bother with lower-level spells when using less metamagic on higher-level spells give you the same result with an higher spell DC? And if you only use the same spells again and again with different level of metamagic, where's the fun?

I completely agree that your system is more elegant than having to select spell lists and memorize 300 hundred spells (which also brings the problem of the same spells being selected over and over again - what sane player would have a different spell selection each day?), but I really think that some of the issues it raises are bad. Sorry

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Fieari dude!

As I'm still slightly unsure of what you mean, let me try and explain it as I currently see what you are saying.

Okay

You have the feats Enlarge and Quicken. You take Improved Metamagic Capacity once. Now, all your level 1 spells are Enlarged and Quickened for free. Or perhaps all your level 1 spells are Enlarged OR Quickened for free?

Wrong.

You have the feats Enlarge and Quicken. You take Improved Metamagic Capacity once. You now gain +1 free spell level slot worth of Metamagic to apply to any spell. So you could:

a) Enlarge Spell only takes up one spell slot so you could apply that for free to all you spells without increasing the spell slot.

b) Quicken Spell requires four spell slots. So you can't apply that for free but you could Quicken a 6th-level spell as a 9th-level spell slot.

6th-level spell + Quicken Spell = 10th-level spell slot - 1 level spell slot (for Improved Metamagic Capacity)

You take Improved Metamagic Capacity again. Now, all your level 2 spells are Enlarged and/or Quickened for free (Or perhaps Doubly Enlarged* for Free, not quickened?).

Wrong. See above.

If you had two Imp. Metamagic Capacity feats you get two free spell level slots.

The key you are missing is that Metamagic costs spell levels. Improved Metamagic Capacity gives you one free spell level each time.

Or is it that if you take Improved Metamagic Capacity, all your level 1 spells are just Enlarged for free. Taken twice, level 1 spells are doubly enlarged*, level 2 spells are just plain enlarged for free. Taken 4 times, level 1 spells are quickened for free (or enlarged x4* for free).

How does this work?

*Assuming you have Metamagic Freedom to back it up.

This is slightly better, but remember the bonus spell level slots from Imp. Metamagic Capacity work on any spell you have.

Taken four times you could quicken ANY spell for free. Taken four times (with Metamagic Freedom) you could Enlarge a spell four times.

ALso you can use Metamagic as normal AND THEN apply the IMC bonuses on top.

So you could take a 5th-level spell and quicken it (it now uses a 9th-level spell slot). Then if you had IMC (x4) and MF, you could quicken another spell (same as multispell).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya Sledge mate!

Hmmm I may try throwing this into the game next time we do get our epics playing. Balancewise it might have to be tweaked a bit for this campaign, as we have a bit more feats than I think is normal at level 42.

Good luck with it. Its always a touch strange revising rules you are used to but I think its pretty solid.

Hi UK!

Hiya matey!

I just got it wrong, like the feat would make your slots go up a level, making you have only slots of 2nd through 10th level available after getting it, still seems easy enough for me.

Anyway, I got it now, but what level are those spell slots gained, that is the picture I did not get.

You gain them every time you take Improved Metamagic Capacity epic feat.

Each time you take it you gain +1 free level worth of metamagic spell slots.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey poilbrun matey!

Of course not, but I still think adding to the power of spells while lowering their number is not always a fair trade-off.

Well, the added power is optional. But it actually makes lower level spells valid again.

The lower number of spells saves a lot of preplanning at epic levels.

Under the official WotC rules, epic characters end up with dozens of totally worthless spells. My rules change this.

If you were actually at 60th-level under the official rules you would never consider using your low level spells, which means they become totally pointless and in fact detrimental to the game, cluttering up time.

My 17th level party (only 3 players - 1 fighter/sorcerer/spellsword, 1 rogue/duelist and 1 wizard/cleric/mystic theurge) and their 3 15th level cohorts (1 fighter/wizard/spellsword, 1 ranger/arcane archer, 1 cleric/wizard/mystic theurge) encountered an orc horde. Even though individually they were low-level, they still had problems, simply because they had to keep their high-level spells for the time when they would fight the higher-level NPC who were behind the orc attack.

Put that into perspective for a 60th level wizard. He needs to go down in Hell to retrieve an agent of good from the clutches of an Archduke. On the way there, he will encounter tons of lower CR devils. Should he burn 24th level spells to fight against Bearded Devils or keep them when he will face Pit Fiends or the Archduke himself?

Well lets really put that into perspective.

Throw in probably 75+ spells per day, scrolls, epic magic items (ring of wizardry anyone, rods, staves, wands), epic spells, artifacts?, cohorts, summoned monsters, and at 60th-level the Wizards familiar will probably be able to kill Pit Fiends.

The only way you can possibly run out of spells at that level is if you are tactically inept.

Furthermore, I'm afraid that you would only get to see a couple of spells.

How is that possible? One spell does not do everything...even wish has limits and you are not likely to have an infinite supply of those.

Why would anyone bother with lower-level spells when using less metamagic on higher-level spells give you the same result with an higher spell DC?

...and you are about to tell me how this doesn't apply in even greater measure to the official rules?

If my spells are:

6/15/14/14/14/14/12/12/12/12/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/5/5/5/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/3/2/2/2/2

When would I ever bother with the lowest hundred (or so) of those spells? I already have 108 spells of 10th-level or higher. Those are practically never going to run out in a given situation. The other 125 spells become practically obsolete.

With my system the difference between your worst spell and your best spell is always still going to be 9 levels. With the official rules the difference could be 20 levels, 30 levels or 40 levels.

And if you only use the same spells again and again with different level of metamagic, where's the fun?

Well first off, remember this is a quick application of my magic system, it doesn't include the new types of magic. Neither does it include the new 10th+ level spells - some mighty spells only become available at 15th-level, or 33rd-level or 100th-level etc.

I completely agree that your system is more elegant than having to select spell lists and memorize 300 hundred spells (which also brings the problem of the same spells being selected over and over again - what sane player would have a different spell selection each day?),

Indeed.

but I really think that some of the issues it raises are bad. Sorry

No apologies necessary mate, I value your opinion and constructive criticism. However I think in this case the positives of these changes FAR outweigh any perceived negatives.