The (new) Immortals Handbook Thread

[Anabstercorian]

17 days. I have chosen what to flavor your dog with.

 

[Kerrick]

I won't say exactly what it is just yet, but I think it has some exciting repercussions for epic games.

You know, you're just evil... I've been waiting for some tidbits on your epic spell system, and now you dangle this in front of us. I tell you...

In one relatively small region of Toril there are: 24th, 25th (4*), 27th, 28th, 29th (2), 30th, 32nd, 35th = 12 epic characters (13 counting Driz'zt who must be 20th+ by now), and thats only the ones in the ELH, there are probably a dozen or so more that just haven't been updated yet.

I'm probably nitpicking, but in what "relatively small region" are you putting all these characters? Halaster's in Waterdeep, Elminster's in Shadowdale, Manshoon is in Citadel Raven, The Simbul is in Rashemen (or somewhere around there), and that priestess of Auril lives somewhere near the Great Glacier. And yes, Driz'zt is over 20... I think he's 23-24 now.

By illustrating this I mean to point out that the Forgotten Realms make it look like getting to epic level is easy, but I no longer think thats the case.

I dunno.. the common complain I'm seeing is that characters level too fast. Our group went from 1st (just beforer 3E came along) to 29th-31st in about 3 years.

It may be something like (and much of this is off the top of my head):

- 20th-level spell = Teleport City
- 30th-level Spell = Stasise Country
- 40th-level spell = Dead Magic Zone (Planetwide)
- 50th level spell = Destroy Planet
- 60th level spell = Create Sun
- 70th-level spell = Summon Black Hole
- 90th-level spell = Move Galaxy

Granted that this is off the top of your head, I think you're scaling them a bit too quickly. Teleport city is about right (I have one based on the 2E estate transference that's L22). Placing an entire country under stasis I'd place around 35; a planet-wide dead zone... umm, around 60? Destroying a planet is hefty; my DM's old group had two spells, one called hammer strike that made the core of the world ring (created earthquakes all over the place for a month afterwards, but required the sacrifice of 1.5 million XP in magic items and 850 levels of spellcasters (all 10th+ level); the other was called earthwrack - it welded all the continental plates and recracked them. The second spell was cast only once, and then only partially; even then it very nearly wiped out all life on the planet, and eradicated winter for the next 500 years. I'm not sure what levels those were in 1E, though. I'd have to agree with S'mon - spells that create/destroy matter on a galactic scale should be huge... at least 70th (IOW, only accessible by a number of extremely high-level beings - likely gods - getting together in a ritual to cast them).

 

[S'mon]

>>What is so significant about '100th-level'? Why do you 'need' it and more to the point why do you need it to be so feeble?<<

You seem to have overlooked that:

1. In my conversion Greater Gods start at 40th & Doomstar is 96th, so 100th is very high

but

2. In your standard conversion Doomstar would be ca 348th level, Thrin is over 80th (+ a divine CR mod presumably), and apparently lots of critters are 100+

So letting 100th levellers destroy planets will have far more impact in your 'official' rules than in my game.

>>When initially created Doomstar was, in terms of power:

Overgod > Doomstar > Greater God (Correct!?)<<

He was much higher level than any Overgod - Doomstar 500th, Overgods ca 100th in their highest class. He had less hit points though, being single-classed M_U - ca 540 hp as opposed to 1000 for an Overgod. I'd say he was more powerful than an Overgod on neutral terrain but would not wish to face Ahriman on his home plane.

>>As such when you convert using your system we get:

('Typical') Overgods 61st-level > Doomstar > Greater Gods 37th-level.<<

Nope.

>>Either way, Doomstar roughly ends up at between 49-52nd level (Maybe 3 or 4 levels higher to balance his lack of divinity).<<

He's 96th level by my conversion. I suspect Overgods are lower than that, probably 60-80. Plus CR divinity mods of course.


>>This means that a totally min/maxed Doomstar (which I don't think he is) would be able to cast maybe 28th-level spells, although far more likely 21st or thereabouts. Which, coincidently enough corresponds to City level devastation (which you yourself admitted Doomstar was capable of 'at will') using my proposed changes to epic magic.<<

I think arguing about _my_ campaign is slightly pointless, since I am free to ignore your work if it doesn't suit me. You should think about how having 100th-levellers destroy planets affects your own power gradient, where AIR Greater Gods are around 100th level? Can Boccob destroy a planet?

>>Your suggestion of 100 levels in a year is implausible and the idea of 100 levels in 5 years is unlikely.<<

I'd say it was unlikely, though mostly because GMing high level 3e routinely is a pain in the arse and few GMs will stick with it that long. 1e was far easier.

>>It should be noted that although Thrin was 117th-level in 1e, he would be nowhere near that figure had we applied the 3rd Edition methods for advancement and you know it. You even converted him to about 44th, which I think is probably a fair appraisal of where he would actually be. <<

I was more interested in appraising actual relative power rather than advancement, but you're probably right.


>>The funny thing is he could just as easily make that a +40 Natural Armour bonus for the same GP/XP cost, by increasing the casting time and taking a little backlash damage.

...and that spell would be a far cheaper spell than Greater Ruin.

One thing I have noticed about the Armour Spell Seed in the ELH is that making it a Deflection bonus instead of an Armour or Natural Armour bonus is rated as five times more costly an increase - which is so insane it must be a mistake.

Base DC is 14 (for +4 AC bonus of any type) +2/point of armour/natural armour and +10/point of deflection etc.

While the Fortify Spell Seed Grants:

Base DC is 17 (base +1 Natural Armour) +4 DC/ point of natural armour.

So if you wanted a +20 AC bonus.

It would be DC 46 using the Armour Spell Seed, DC 154 for a deflection bonus using the armour spell seed and DC 93 using the Fortify Spell Seed. Nice and balanced eh! Can you anticipate which one your wizard wants to use!

I would Hazard a guess and say the Armour Spell Seed is perhaps broken.<<

OK, I'll look at increasing the cost of a Nat Armour Bonus, maybe it should be similar to a Deflection bonus given that they both cost the same in magic items cost. Actually the obvious sensible thing to do would be to not make the DC linear, but to use the same formula as for magic items. I'm thinking 10 + (Bonus squared x 4) for natural armour - so +4 would be base DC 74. Sound about right? For regular Armour bonus I'd use 10 + (Bonus squared x2) since item Armour bonuses are half as expensive as natural armour, and also IMC Nat armour is harder to come by.

Edit: My copy of Fortify doesn't mention it being able to improve AC.

 

[S'mon]

>>- 20th-level spell = Teleport City
- 30th-level Spell = Stasise Country
- 40th-level spell = Dead Magic Zone (Planetwide)
- 50th level spell = Destroy Planet
- 60th level spell = Create Sun
- 70th-level spell = Summon Black Hole
- 90th-level spell = Move Galaxy <<

The first 3 are arbitrary in that their difficulty mostly depends on how magic works. Plane shifting a city might be much easier than teleporting it to a designated location, for instance. And creating a planetary dead magic zone might be far easier than stasising a country - after all Temp Stasis is 9th level, 1 target, where A-M shell is 6th and affects an area.

The other effects aren't really comparable to me, they seem on a different scale with each increment being ca 100 billion times more powerful than the one before, except summoning a black hole is only about 13 times as difficult as creating a sun-sized star. So I think your scale is kinda wonky.

If I were you using your level gradient I'd maybe put plane-shifting a city-sized area at 20th, a global dead magic zone at 40th (depending on duration), scouring a planet with windstorms 50th, a global stasis zone at 60th, vapourising a planet with a word ca 500th, creating a (real-world) sun maybe 5000th, creating a black hole ca 5050, moving a (real-world) galaxy 50,000. But you should be considering the physics of the universe - if the sun is a 6' orb drawn across the sky by a chariot, it may be quite easy to create.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Jerrick matey!

You know, you're just evil... I've been waiting for some tidbits on your epic spell system, and now you dangle this in front of us. I tell you...

I'm probably nitpicking, but in what "relatively small region" are you putting all these characters? Halaster's in Waterdeep, Elminster's in Shadowdale, Manshoon is in Citadel Raven, The Simbul is in Rashemen (or somewhere around there), and that priestess of Auril lives somewhere near the Great Glacier. And yes, Driz'zt is over 20... I think he's 23-24 now.

Relatively small in terms of the whole planet. You have all the other continents and major territories. You could easily be looking at 100+ epic characters across Faerun. That said I don't think its too big a problem, and might even make sense dependant upon the population.

You can have 1 20th-level character per million people, and 1 30th-level character per billion (of course these are for typical averages not hard rules).

I dunno.. the common complain I'm seeing is that characters level too fast. Our group went from 1st (just beforer 3E came along) to 29th-31st in about 3 years.

Using the 3rd Ed. EXP rules as written I would say that is about right. Although I know some people think that is too quick...I don't, primarily because it gets more people into epic/immortal levels faster.

Granted that this is off the top of your head, I think you're scaling them a bit too quickly.

Its possible I suppose.

...but I doubt I was out by that much.

Teleport city is about right (I have one based on the 2E estate transference that's L22). Placing an entire country under stasis I'd place around 35; a planet-wide dead zone... umm, around 60? Destroying a planet is hefty; my DM's old group had two spells, one called hammer strike that made the core of the world ring (created earthquakes all over the place for a month afterwards, but required the sacrifice of 1.5 million XP in magic items and 850 levels of spellcasters (all 10th+ level); the other was called earthwrack - it welded all the continental plates and recracked them. The second spell was cast only once, and then only partially; even then it very nearly wiped out all life on the planet, and eradicated winter for the next 500 years. I'm not sure what levels those were in 1E, though.

I am sure all the pieces will fall into place when I eventually work it all out.

I'd have to agree with S'mon - spells that create/destroy matter on a galactic scale should be huge... at least 70th (IOW, only accessible by a number of extremely high-level beings - likely gods - getting together in a ritual to cast them).

Given that I have galactic level shenanigans 'pencilled in' as 90th-level spells, I don't understand your concern that it needs to be at least 70th.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey S'mon!

>>What is so significant about '100th-level'? Why do you 'need' it and more to the point why do you need it to be so feeble?<<

You seem to have overlooked that:

1. In my conversion Greater Gods start at 40th & Doomstar is 96th, so 100th is very high

but

2. In your standard conversion Doomstar would be ca 348th level, Thrin is over 80th (+ a divine CR mod presumably), and apparently lots of critters are 100+

CR 100+ deities or monsters are not necessarily planet destroyers.

So letting 100th levellers destroy planets will have far more impact in your 'official' rules than in my game.

Absolutely. Then again, you like your deities to be relatively weak. In fact, I have noticed that your deities roughly parallel my avatars/aspects, so those rules may be more to your taste.

>>When initially created Doomstar was, in terms of power:

Overgod > Doomstar > Greater God (Correct!?)<<

He was much higher level than any Overgod - Doomstar 500th, Overgods ca 100th in their highest class. He had less hit points though, being single-classed M_U - ca 540 hp as opposed to 1000 for an Overgod. I'd say he was more powerful than an Overgod on neutral terrain but would not wish to face Ahriman on his home plane.

He's 96th level by my conversion. I suspect Overgods are lower than that, probably 60-80. Plus CR divinity mods of course.

So your overgods are not really the planet creating, reality shaping entities from mythology that you previously mentioned were one of the primary factors in creation myths, but instead operate on a less than city-wide strata of power...if even that?

I think arguing about _my_ campaign is slightly pointless, since I am free to ignore your work if it doesn't suit me.

True.

You should think about how having 100th-levellers destroy planets affects your own power gradient, where AIR Greater Gods are around 100th level?

Well remember you would have to be single classed and min/maxed to even be powerful enough.

In the Bestiary, the Arch-Deva (Greater God) can cast 21st-level spells. While a Seraphim (an Overgod/Old One) can cast 33rd-level spells. Of course I don't introduce this new more powerful facet of epic magic in the Bestiary. So a 33rd-level spell isn't going to be stasising any countries using the official rules.

Can Boccob destroy a planet?

If not he could certainly make a mess of one. Then again, Boccob would likely be the most powerful non-cosmic arcane spellcaster. Personally I'd say he would be casting about 40th-level spells. The maximum spell level would probably be equal to half your caster level.

>>It should be noted that although Thrin was 117th-level in 1e, he would be nowhere near that figure had we applied the 3rd Edition methods for advancement and you know it. You even converted him to about 44th, which I think is probably a fair appraisal of where he would actually be. <<

I was more interested in appraising actual relative power rather than advancement, but you're probably right.

I think we are spot on with 44th-level, given what you are doing with the other gods.

OK, I'll look at increasing the cost of a Nat Armour Bonus, maybe it should be similar to a Deflection bonus given that they both cost the same in magic items cost. Actually the obvious sensible thing to do would be to not make the DC linear, but to use the same formula as for magic items. I'm thinking 10 + (Bonus squared x 4) for natural armour - so +4 would be base DC 74. Sound about right? For regular Armour bonus I'd use 10 + (Bonus squared x2) since item Armour bonuses are half as expensive as natural armour, and also IMC Nat armour is harder to come by.

Certainly sounds better.

Edit: My copy of Fortify doesn't mention it being able to improve AC.

Quote:

Spells using the fortify seed grant a +1 enhancement bonus to whichever one of the following you choose:
- Any one ability score
- Any one kind of saving throw
- Spell resistance
- Natural armour

etc.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again!

>>- 20th-level spell = Teleport City
- 30th-level Spell = Stasise Country
- 40th-level spell = Dead Magic Zone (Planetwide)
- 50th level spell = Destroy Planet
- 60th level spell = Create Sun
- 70th-level spell = Summon Black Hole
- 90th-level spell = Move Galaxy <<

The first 3 are arbitrary in that their difficulty mostly depends on how magic works. Plane shifting a city might be much easier than teleporting it to a designated location, for instance. And creating a planetary dead magic zone might be far easier than stasising a country - after all Temp Stasis is 9th level, 1 target, where A-M shell is 6th and affects an area.

Well you are making the assumption that Dead Magic = Anti-Magic.

Other than that, obviously a planet wide application of a 6th-level area effect spell is going to be lower level than a planet wide application of an 8th-level single target spell (Temporal Stasis is 8th-level by the way).

The other effects aren't really comparable to me, they seem on a different scale with each increment being ca 100 billion times more powerful than the one before, except summoning a black hole is only about 13 times as difficult as creating a sun-sized star. So I think your scale is kinda wonky.

...I did say it was off the top of my head, and for what its worth, generalised. Otherwise I might have said Create Sun (62nd-level), Summon Black Hole (67th-level). But I don't really want to get down to specifics at this point.

Be of no doubt the final eventual system will be flawless.

If I were you using your level gradient I'd maybe put plane-shifting a city-sized area at 20th, a global dead magic zone at 40th (depending on duration), scouring a planet with windstorms 50th, a global stasis zone at 60th,

I don't 'put' effects at a given level, theres nothing arbitrary about this (although I suppose on the basis of my spell list you might well have come to that assumption).

vapourising a planet with a word ca 500th, creating a (real-world) sun maybe 5000th, creating a black hole ca 5050, moving a (real-world) galaxy 50,000.

Thats just utterly pointless though.

But you should be considering the physics of the universe - if the sun is a 6' orb drawn across the sky by a chariot, it may be quite easy to create.

 

[Anabstercorian]

16 days, er, more or less.

 

[Baronovan]

Hi there, UK. Me again.

I don't 'put' effects at a given level, theres nothing arbitrary about this (although I suppose on the basis of my spell list you might well have come to that assumption).

How, may I ask, does anyone "formulate" what level a "summon black hole" spell wouldbe without using some arbitration? You're not the be-all end-all authority on this system; frankly, I don't think there is one, as not even the original writiers are consistent enough to support the idea of any kind of "final mechanic" by which all others are measured and balanced. So you must be approximating something. I just don't buy your claim of not doing so.

 

[S'mon]

So your overgods are not really the planet creating, reality shaping entities from mythology that you previously mentioned were one of the primary factors in creation myths, but instead operate on a less than city-wide strata of power...if even that?

In terms of their direct impact on the campaign world, yes.

Odin Vili & Vi helped form the world in Norse myth, but that doesn't mean Odin can just snap his fingers and make a new planet - or even destroy a city. OK he _could_ destroy a city, but it would take a fair bit of effort - and so could a 20th level Wizard or Druid.